Tolkien

[LadyofLight]

Well, I think I might glaze over too if it were pages and pages, but the description of luthien is only a paragraph...

The History of middle Earth series is basically the SIlmarillion with less editing by Christopher Tolkien.  It's all the info that went into the Silmarillion (plus more that his son cut), but in twelve volumes.  You can find them a lot of places, even in safeway, just not usually all at one time.  Have you ever heard of The Lost Tales or Lays of Beleriand?  Those are part of the series.

There came a time near dawn on the eve of spring, and Lúthien danced upon a green hill;
and suddenly she began to sing. Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises
from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of
the world; and the song of Lúthien released the behind the walls of the world; and the song of
Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold
earth where her feet had passed.

LadyofLight

[Arkanor]

It is impossible to read through HoME linearly.  The stories, while containing much more detail and information than the Sil does (i.e. The Fall of Gondolin has heraldic devices, descriptions of the Plain of Tum..., descriptions of the Gates of Gondolin, etc), are not actually a complete book.  They are really the unfinished notes of J.R.R. TOlkien, edited for (some) coherency by Christopher TOlkien.  Still, though not canon, HoME is EXCELLENT for referencing obscure moments in Middle-Earth.


BTW, go HERE! and to the Forum.  We can always use new members there, especially those who know quite a lot about LoTR, the Sil, and the HoME.

[LadyofLight]

Well, the ability to read them linearly does depend on one's love of Tolkien.  I am frankly obsessed, and I have read Lost Tales Volume 1 and 2 and am working on the Lay's of Beleriand.  

Arkanor is right though, it is difficult and many parts are incomplete, that's whay his son made the Silmarillion, a sort of coherent anthology of his father's works.  But if you're one of those people who want to know every little detail about Tolkien's Middle Earth, they're awesome, but if you just want to be purely entertained I suggest you pick up LOTR or Silmarillion again.

Then the spell of silence fell from Beren, and he called to her, crying Tinúviel; and the
woods echoed the name. Then she halted in wonder, and fled no more, and Beren came to her. But
as she looked on him, doom fell upon her, and she loved him; yet she slipped from his arms and
vanished from his sight even as the day was breaking. Then Beren lay upon the ground in a swoon,
as one slain at once by bliss and grief; and he fell into a sleep as it were into an abyss of shadow,
and waking he was cold as stone, and his heart barren and forsaken. And wandering in mind he
groped as one that is stricken with sudden blindness, and seeks with hands to grasp the vanished
light. Thus he began the payment of anguish for the fate that was laid on him; and in his fate
Lúthien was caught, and being immortal she shared in his mortality, and being free received his
chain; and her anguish was greater than any other of the Eldalië has known.

LadyofLight

[LadyofLight]

Is this thread dying? How sad...

[Lord Lanair]

Hmmm... we need more (relevent) topics!  C'mon, it can't be that hard!

Er... how 'bout the stupidity of the Noldor in refusing to abandon Gondolin?  <_<  

[LadyofLight]

Or we could talk about any of Tolkien's works.  This isn't just a Silmarillion thread.  We could talk about LOTR or whatever.  Or how about the Tale of Turin and how tragic it is that elves can't escape their own fate?

LadyofLight

P.S. Sorry no quotes, but on different computer.

[Filran]

I can't talk LoTR anymore really. I haven't read anything else, so those fly over my head.


LoTR gets a bit boring, tedious, and when you read the ending 19 times you kinda feel he crapped out, and saved his characters, when you feel they were going to die.

19 times was enough for me.  LOL  

[Lord Lanair]

19 times would be enough for me too!  LOL

But I like it when the characters survive.  Would you rather have all the characters you got to know exterminated?    

[Filran]

Yes, because it would have felt more real, and I didn't like them anyway. They were all too... ideal.


I liked Boromir better than all of them. He had flaws, and you could see those flaws. He was a normal human being, and I love that in characters. The regular person thing.

No extra resistance, no resistance to temptation, no magic...

Thats the main reason most fantasy books disgust me now. Its always pointing toward the ideal. I hate ideal.


Thats why I love TCTC. Covenant is human, down to everything. Yes, he had a power, but did he want to use it? No. Did he use it? No. Did he know how to use it? No. Did he even want to save the world he was flung into? No. But, he had to anyway.


I think that LoTR could've held a bit more for me if some of the characters were to die. From what I remeber, Pippin was crushed under a troll/Olog-hai. How did he survive being CRUSHED under one of them?! He should have been hobbit JELLY!


And Frodo and Sam would have died to, if not for the Bird-lord. Now, that was extreme cooincidence, because I cannot remeber if there was a reason of why they were flying over Mordor.
Usually its a rule in writing, an unwriten rule mind you, for characters and situations. Early on, while they are still 'weak' cooincidenses should happen every so often, but to end? It should be on the characters own inner strength.

Frodo didn't have it. I would really only believe Sam getting out of there alive, because I like Sam, and I believe he, not Frodo, is the hero of LoTR.


Just think, where would Frodo be without Sam?

[LadyofLight]

By the ending being some sad and some happy that does make it more real.  I real life, not everyone usually ends up all happy and live happily ever after, but it doesn't usually result in everybody dead either.  There's a balance.  Also, Frodo falling apart and eventually having to rely on Sam is another example of it being more real.  If that were to happen, no one, not even the most innocent little hobbit, could withstand wearing the ring that long.  I have other stuff to say, but frankly I'm in the middle of a family crisis and can't think that much.

LadyofLight

Beyond his hope she returned to him where he sat in darkness, and long ago in the Hidden
Kingdom she laid her hand in his. Thereafter often she came to him, and they went in secret through
the woods together from spring to summer; and no others of the Children of Ilúvatar have had joy
so great, though the time was brief.
But Daeron the minstrel also loved Lúthien, and he espied her meetings with Beren, and
betrayed them to Thingol. Then the King was filled with anger, for Lúthien he loved above all
things, setting her above all the princes of the Elves; whereas mortal Men he did not even take into
his service. Therefore he spoke in grief and amazement to Lúthien; but she would reveal nothing,
until he swore an oath to her that he would neither slay Beren nor imprison him. But he sent his
servants to lay hands on him and lead him to Menegroth as a malefactor; and Lúthien forestalling
them led Beren herself before the throne of Thingol, as if he were an honoured guest.

[Lord Lanair]

I say that Boromir was one of the worst characters, because he was so flawed.  I like a character that usually (if not mostly) does the right things, and whom I can idolize?  No... more like side with or respect.  Someone like Gandalf would be an example.

And if you want characters to die, read Dragon Weather, and the sequal, by Lawrence Scott-Evans.  Surprisingly, it is a fantasy series with character deaths!  LOL    

[Filran]

No, I don't like character deaths, just where it feels there should be a death, there should be one. Preferably, very, very moving ones.


Now, I myself, got very, very attached to Boromir because he felt the pull of the ring. Because he just so depretly wanted to protect his home no matter what. I saw him as very honorable.

And how he managed to help them go through Charadras, or however you spell it, by blazing the path! If he wasn't there, I think we'd have Fellowship popsicles! Yummy.

I tend to get attached to characters, and I am an emotional dude. I get depressed, and cried for Boromir, cause he rocked. Everything just sorta lacked after he was gone. I had to go over to Sam to just barely fill the slot of well-liked character in there.




ALL THE CHARACTERS I LIKE DIE! WHY?! WHYYYY?!


Sturm, Boromir, Tom... How many countless others?!

[Arkanor]

LOL... a lot.




A lot of the movie characters sucked, unfortunately.  Frodo fell too easily to the Ring, the other hobbits were a little too immature, Faramir was... gah!  But Aragorn and Gandalf were ok.  Theoden was acceptable, but Eowyn was too aggressive.  And what was up with the Elves in TTT?

[Filran]

The Elves were NEVER at Helm's Deep! I feel insulted! THAT WAS A HUMAN VICTORY! All the elves ran off.


And where were those rabid murderous trees whos names I forgot?! They came to Helm's deep to EAT teh Uruk-hai and orcs that ran away. But no evil murdering trees that eat flesh.


And Faramir! They butchered poor, poor Faramir!


And Frodo never made comments about how he was old, which, he was! An old hobbit was Frodo baggins!


Theoden, I liked how they portrayed him. I found him good, and with a voice that I could assosiate with the character.


Viggo was a very good Aragorn, though, in some aspects could be better.

I have one gripe with Gandalf in the movie though. They had HIM lead the way over Charadras, when it was Boromir! And they gave Gandalf some of Boromir's lines! A curse! A curse upon them!


And Glorfindel was replaced with Arwen! Horrid! I liked Glorfindel!



And I noticed an error at the black gates of Mordor in TTT. They had trolls. In SUNLIGHT. Trolls turn to stone in sunlight! There was no way those were Olog-hai! The BASTARDS.

[matt_the_shark]

okay, just a few things:

the elf at helms deep thing was horrible.  it sucked.  end of story.

the "rabid murderous trees"were ents.  and they didn't eat the orcs, they more crushed them and stuff because they hated the orcs for senselessly chopping the trees down.

the movie farimir-GAH! HE'S HORRIBLE! WTF DID THEY DO TO HIM???

Frodo Baggins was not old.  he was only in his fifties when he goes off on the quest.  Bilbo was an old hobbit indeed.  he was 131 at the end of the trilogy.  but Frodo was not old. :hmmm:

I think they did a good job with theoden, but not the best job, and they could have been better.

Viggo was a VERY good Aragorn.  My only complaint was that he could have been a little more dark sounding in the first movie.

I guess Borimir did lead them in a way over caradhras(I think that's how you spell it), but Aragorn and Gandalf also did a bit of the leading there.  also, in Moria, Gandalf and Gimli led them.  btw, what lines did Gandalf steal? I'm too lazy to look.

What the hell happened to Glorfindel!  The person did a decent job playing Awen, but they should have had Glorfindel in it. :hmmm:

stupid directors, they let the stupid trolls live.  they should have made it more dark and deadly looking in Mordor.