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Author Topic: for the USA peoples  (Read 116133 times)
evilknight
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« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2004, 01:44:05 AM »

the reason the other countries dont bother with foreign affairs like that is because they have the common sense not to go and piss off people who can fly planes into things.
 
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Lord Lanair
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« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2004, 01:53:53 AM »

And so the world is dominated and cowed into fearful submission by a group of fanatics with no morals nor concern for human life and human rights?  :angry:
« Last Edit: September 10, 2004, 01:54:12 AM by Lord Lanair » Logged

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Saladin
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« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2004, 02:52:46 AM »

i just want to throw in my thoughts

I really despise Bush for all that he has done, i hate the increaslingly partisan politics that have permeated politics and which has been started by the Republican attack machine. I resent the fact that Republicans have to lie all the time(not i really believe all Republicans too but if they will be partisan i will be right back at them) I think the war in Iraq was wrong on so many levels but not that we've gotten where we are we cannot pull back now.

However I do think that the rest of the world is unfairly being anti-American. They always side with the extremists in Islam and do not realize that they are perverting the word of Mohammed for their own means and destroying Islam. The rest of the world condemns Israel even though the Palestinian terrorists and the manipulation of the Palestinians by surrounding Arab governments are as bad as Israel.

Europe is especially harsh with America, unlike Lanair i feel that their criticism of America is ok. After all if they always adored America they wouldn't be excerising their free speech, which is a huge part of democracy. However I feel that Europe goes way overboard especially in their method of appeasing dictators (think they would've learned from Chamberlain appeasing Hitler) and that they are as much to blame for the situation in Sudan
 
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--J. Robert Oppenheimer upon witnessing the explosion of the first atomic bomb
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Lord Lanair
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« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2004, 03:42:58 AM »

Interesting: a moderate.  LOL

I think Bush is an idiot, and the war in Iraq is questionable at best, but you're right- we can't pull out now.  We can just make sure it doesn't appen again.  Wink  As to partisan politics, I really can't offer an intelligent comment.

Criticism of America is fine... but when it comes to loathing and utter hatred (like one of the students in my grade who went to France last year as an exchange student, and a teacher refused to shake hands because he was American) people need to realize what they're saying.

Nice Chamberlin reference.  ^_^  
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- I'm scissors.  Nerf rock.  Paper's fine.

-It's not the mind control that kills people; it's the fall damage.

-Que sera, sera.
Rug
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« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2004, 03:29:24 PM »

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(like one of the students in my grade who went to France last year as an exchange student, and a teacher refused to shake hands because he was American)

I'm going to take issue with this.

You are saying that its ok for you to do that, but they aren't allowed to. This is called hypocrisy.

Case in point: 'Freedom Fries' ?

Every American I have got into a political debate with, to this day, hates France with a burning passion because they opposed America's illegal and maverick military actions. Throwing. Toys. Out. Of. Pram.

If you can't take it, don't give it.

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And so the world is dominated and cowed into fearful submission by a group of fanatics with no morals nor concern for human life and human rights? 

I couldn't have described the Bush administration better if I had three weeks and a team of professionals to help me...

-Dominated: You bully people into doing what you want. You even say you think robbing people of their resources is fine (fuller rebuttal below).
-Fearful submission: While I dislike referencing Michael Moore (His work is full of holes), Fahrenheit 9/11 covers the point I'd make here nicely.
-Group of fanatics: No way to say this tactfully. Dubya is a christian fundamentalist.
-No morals: Illegal invasions and subjagation here we come!
-No concern for human rights: Guantanemo Bay. Internation Rights of the Child.

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1) Islam- Pakistan is in fact our strongest supporter (the Saudis have been increasingly reluctant in their dealings with us, while the Pakistanis have captured quite a few Al Qaeda terrorists).

So? The House of Saud still funds all your top politicians. Funds can be a lose term for bribe, in this case.

Quote
2) WMDs or NBCs... whatever... can you honestly say that Saddam was not planning to build at least one type of them? He'd already used chemical weapons in his wars with the Kurds and Iran, so we know he had the potential to unleash even more of them against his other enemies. Removing him was essential... even if we had waited until a few years later, he would still have been a menace to the global community, and would need to go. Now, did we do things "legitimatly?" That's an opinion question, just like "do the ends justify the means?"

The NBCs Saddam Hussein used on the Kurds were sold to him by America and Britian for use in the Iran-Iraq war. Never forget who created Saddam Hussein. We did.

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3) Iraq is a war zone, but it is changing! I don't know for sure, but I believe there have already been elections.... if not they'll come soon.

Changing, hm? We'll see. Nothing has changed so far. The appointal of an interim government changed precisely nothing.

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4) About the Ayatollah- first of all, he only held off al-Sadr... he didn't support the U.S. Seconly, he's a SHI'ITE Muslim, while the majority are Sunnis. Do you think the Shi'ites, who gained many rights when the U.S. occupied and Saddam was kicked out, would complain?

He reasoned with al-Sadr in the only way possible... appealing to his Religion. America could only have solved that issue through storming the Shrine. Hooray for unilateral action, hm?

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6) War over resources, in my opinion, is justified.

And, because you're the biggest and the baddest, you can bully anyone you want for them! Wow, that works out brilliantly for you! Want some Crack? Invade Columbia! Need cheap Vodka? Bye bye Russia!

If you think like that, you will only stop the illegal, immoral, and downright asinine invasions when the whole world is run from Washington D.C. Is this what you want?[/size]

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maybe that's because of the inaction of every other major power in the world. Other countries are not inferior, just unwilling. There's a big difference.

Other countires do not take action because they do not think action is necessary, yes? So... one country thinks action is necessary... and 150 don't... but because the 1 is huge, and likes bullying people, it does what it wants anyway. Yay for democracy?


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Cool Do you know what sarcasm is? We are the most advanced nation. Europe would be nothing without the U.S. WE rebuilt your continent after WWII, lifting you out of certain depression/communism, WE continue to provide military and economic aid to you, WE are trying to PROTECT you, and all you can do is spit on us!?!? Show some gratitude!   

I REFUSE TO BE GRATEFUL TO THE COUNTRY THAT IS ACTIVELY FUCKING THE WORLD UP.[/b]

Yes, you funded rebuilding after WW2. Whee. That was 60 years ago, you had a different government, there was a different world climate, you had a more isolationist government.

YOU are trying to PROTECT YOU. YOU are trying to DO WHAT YOU WANT. You are DOING WHAT YOU WANT. It cannot be proved either way that 9/11 would've been an isolated incident if America hadn't responded in the way it did, but I like to think that if you'd acted with a little more tact, the Bali bombings etc would not have ocurred, and America would not be over a thousand servicemen short.

But, hey, thats probably just pointless optomism.

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9) I agree, the U.S. should be abiding by Kyoto, and should accept more UN decisions, but considering how we view the UN as a waste of our time at this current point, we have little incentive to do so.

How's this for a paradox? The U.N is a joke because the USA makes it a joke. And the USA won't get involved because the U.N is a joke. Time for the USA to get involved, and stop being a Global Bully, and start being a Global Role Model. Be Nice. Negotiate. Help clean the planet up, and abide to humanitarian treaties. No more breaking of international law, hm?
« Last Edit: September 10, 2004, 03:38:48 PM by Rug » Logged
RipperRoo
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« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2004, 03:34:33 PM »

What he said. ^
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Rug
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« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2004, 03:45:09 PM »

I like this, too.

((Source: New York Times (nytimes.com)))

Quote
Cheney Spits Toads
By MAUREEN DOWD

Published: September 9, 2004

WASHINGTON — George W. Bush and Dick Cheney have always used the president's father as a reverse lodestar. In 1992, the senior Mr. Bush wooed the voters with "Message: I care.'' So this week, Mr. Cheney wooed the voters with, Message: You die.

The terrible beauty of its simplicity grows on you. It is a sign of the dark, macho, paranoid vice president's restraint that he didn't really take it to its emotionally satisfying conclusion: Message: Vote for us or we'll kill you.

Without Zell Miller around to out-crazy him, and unplugged after a convention that tried to "humanize'' him with grandchildren, horses and wifely anecdotes about his inability to dance the twist, Mr. Cheney is back as Terrifier in Chief.

He finally simply spit out what the Bush team has been more subtly trying to convey for months: A vote for John Kerry is a vote for the terrorists.

"Because if we make the wrong choice,'' Mr. Cheney said in Des Moines in that calm baritone, "then the danger is that we'll get hit again. That we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States, and that we'll fall back into the pre-9/11 mind-set if you will, that in fact these terrorist attacks are just criminal acts, and that we're not really at war.''

These guys figure, hey, these scare tactics worked in building support for the That Stupid Country AGAIN war, maybe they can work in tearing down support for John Kerry. They linked Saddam with terrorism and cowed the Democrats (including Mr. Kerry, who has never been able to make the case against the Bush administration's trompe l'oeil casus belli) and fooled the country into going along with their trumped-up war. So why not link Mr. Kerry with terrorism and cow the voters into sticking with the White House they've got?

It's like that fairy tale where vipers and toads jump out of the mouth of the accursed mean little girl when she tries to speak. Every time Mr. Cheney opens his mouth, vermin leap out.

The vice president and president did not even mention Osama at the convention because of the inconvenient fact that the fiend is still out there, plotting. Yet they denigrate Mr. Kerry as too weak to battle Osama, and treat him as a greater threat.

Mr. Cheney implies that John Kerry couldn't protect us from an attack like 9/11, blithely ignoring the fact that he and President Bush didn't protect us from the real 9/11. Think of what brass-knuckled Republicans could have made of a 9/11 tape of an uncertain Democratic president giving a shaky statement that looked like a hostage tape and flying randomly from air base to air base, as the veep ordered that planes be shot down.

Mr. Cheney warns against falling back "into the pre-9/11 mind-set,'' when, in fact, the Bush team's pre-9/11 mind-set was all about being stuck in the cold war and reviving "Star Wars" - which doesn't work and is useless against terrorist tactics. The Bush crowd played down terrorism because Bill Clinton and Sandy Berger had told their successors that Osama was a priority, and the Bushies scorned all things Clinton. The president shrugged off intelligence briefings with such headlines as "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the United States'' because there was brush to be cleared and unaffordable tax-cutting to be done.

After the blue-ribbon graybeards declared the Bush administration's pumped-up W.M.D. claims and Saddam-9/11 links bogus, the White House went into a defensive crouch - especially the man in the undisclosed bunker, who had veered wildly between overly pessimistic predictions of Saddam's nukes and overly optimistic predictions of grateful Iraqis with flowers and chocolates.

For a time, it seemed that Americans were realizing they'd been flimflammed by the Bushies. But at the convention, the swaggering Bush juggernaut brazenly went back to boasting about its pre-emption doctrine, tracing imaginary connections between 9/11 and Saddam, and calling all our foes terrorists.

Why should the same group that managed to paint a flextime guardsman as a heroic commander - and a war hero as a war criminal - bother rebutting or engaging with critics?

As the deaths of American men and women fighting in That Stupid Country AGAIN topped 1,000, and with insurgents controlling parts of central That Stupid Country AGAIN, the White House trotted out the same old discredited line, assuming it can wear - and scare - everyone down by November.
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RipperRoo
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« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2004, 04:56:15 PM »

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and that we'll fall back into the pre-9/11 mind-set if you will, that in fact these terrorist attacks are just criminal acts, and that we're not really at war.
Notice that that mind-set is actually the truth?
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"How could you be intimidated by a woman who had told you in dead seriousness that there were one hundred and seven different kisses, and ninety-three ways to touch a man's face with your hand?" --Min--
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mole
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« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2004, 04:57:14 PM »

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Now, did we do things "legitimatly?" That's an opinion question, just like "do the ends justify the means?"

in context, this is like saying.

"Were we right to murder a man before he crashed into my favourite car?"


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We can just make sure it doesn't appen again.

what the fuck are you talking about? it was your bloody regime that went in.

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Cool Do you know what sarcasm is? We are the most advanced nation. Europe would be nothing without the U.S. WE rebuilt your continent after WWII, lifting you out of certain depression/communism, WE continue to provide military and economic aid to you, WE are trying to PROTECT you, and all you can do is spit on us!?!? Show some gratitude!

heh, i liked this bit. so working back wards my main two points are.

No.
and
The U.S. would be nothing without Europe, WE built your continent.

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Lemme ask you this- what have Europeans done recently that sucessfully soved a global issue? Communism? Terrorism? Poverty/human rights abuses in Africa, Bosnia, Kurdistan, etc...? None of the above! Since you refuse to lead, we end up doing it.

Communisn is one of the best theory's of governments and that was produced by Europe.
Existentialism was sparked by the same inspiration for Communism.
Terrorism is a point of view, extremists would be a far better word.
We as a country are actively helping in Africa. But we dont suply guns and armed trained soldeirs. we send medics and humanitarian workers to HELP THE CIVILIAN POPULATION.

Quote
However I do think that the rest of the world is unfairly being anti-American. They always side with the extremists in Islam and do not realize that they are perverting the word of Mohammed for their own means and destroying Islam. The rest of the world condemns Israel even though the Palestinian terrorists and the manipulation of the Palestinians by surrounding Arab governments are as bad as Israel.

This i find a very important subject (can blame biased history teachers for my views).
Israel is a division of palestine that was devided into Jewish and Arab parts respectively. The Palestinian Arabs have had their country devided and regouverned by an external force just so that some people can feel better about themselves after the holocaust. The Jewish populations claim is somthing like "we used to live here it is rightfully ours so says the bible..."
in effect this is like saying that if Britain had a large enough force and backing we should be able to move into america and subdivide what we want, install our own government and control it as we wish. Fair? No? exactly thats why we side with the Palestinians, they have been robbed and this is immoral.

 
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Quote
Yiff Hunter says:
and the last question do u get a sudden eye twicth and shudder wen i say :

CLEAN?
RipperRoo says:
yes
Yiff Hunter says:
rite ive declared u imorally peasant like
RipperRoo
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« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2004, 05:14:08 PM »

Quote
Point #1 "heh, i liked this bit. so working back wards my main two points are.

No.
and
The U.S. would be nothing without Europe, WE built your continent."



Point #2 "Communism is one of the best theory's of governments"
#1 So true.
#2 And thats why Im a Commie.
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"How could you be intimidated by a woman who had told you in dead seriousness that there were one hundred and seven different kisses, and ninety-three ways to touch a man's face with your hand?" --Min--
"Ohh my feet are getting hotter than a flame grilled otte
mole
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« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2004, 05:20:45 PM »

i missed soe comment form somthing lanair said somewhere

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remember kids, theres no such thing as free speach and you dont live in a free country.
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Quote
Yiff Hunter says:
and the last question do u get a sudden eye twicth and shudder wen i say :

CLEAN?
RipperRoo says:
yes
Yiff Hunter says:
rite ive declared u imorally peasant like
Rug
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« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2004, 05:38:56 PM »

Communism is fine in theory, but the likelyhood of it ever working in practice is remote.
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mole
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« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2004, 05:40:26 PM »

Quote
remember kids, theres no such thing as free speach and you dont live in a free country. says:
since when were you a communist?
Cookiemeister says:
since I found out about Comunism and Facist
Cookiemeister says:
*Facism
remember kids, theres no such thing as free speach and you dont live in a free country. says:
who would lead your government?
Cookiemeister says:
you, ofcourse
remember kids, theres no such thing as free speach and you dont live in a free country. says:
that wouldnt work
Cookiemeister says:
cause your a hardcore facist?
remember kids, theres no such thing as free speach and you dont live in a free country. says:
no because id become corrupt so easily
Cookiemeister says:
LOL
Cookiemeister says:
thats the problem
Cookiemeister says:
Communism would work amazingly if someone could just do it properly
Cookiemeister says:
unfortunatly, so far, no-one has
remember kids, theres no such thing as free speach and you dont live in a free country. says:
thats the problem human psychology wont allow it too
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Quote
Yiff Hunter says:
and the last question do u get a sudden eye twicth and shudder wen i say :

CLEAN?
RipperRoo says:
yes
Yiff Hunter says:
rite ive declared u imorally peasant like
RipperRoo
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« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2004, 05:41:21 PM »

I so just copied and pasted that exact same thing....
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Lord Lanair
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« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2004, 08:41:48 PM »

Time to reduce the volume of arguments I have to read...  LOL

1) My personal opinion is that war over resources is justified.  Hypothetical example- in the interests of every country in the world, the US puts together a coalition of armies designed to topple a dictatorial, anti-Western government that violently seizes control of Saudi Arabia.  Read closely, those of you who are idiots.... the key words are: every country, coalition, dictatorial, violent revolution.

Communism: is an evil idea, which can never be put into practice, is the destroyer of nations (look at the horrible economic state East Germany is in, with the sole cause being Communism), and has caused many problems through it's belief in world revolution.  <_<

Israel: Israel exists because the morons in Britain allowed it to come about.  That the US is there now is a testament to our determination to support our allies, even if they make political blunders.  We stood by the British decision, so don't complain about that.

Europe/World: Consider the Marshall Plan, which you ungrateful bastards have YET TO PAY BACK.  Consider all the funding the US gives to the UN (over 25%... and we're 1 country)!  That we did not support 1 fucking bill does not make us a rogue nation, especially considering all the other ones we signed.  Consider who gives the most international aid (which does not consist of arms) to less fortunate nations.  THE US!!!

My last point: AMERICA DID NOT ACT ILLEGALLY IN IRAQ  If all other reasons to support the war are removed (to end human rights abuses, to end Saddam's obvious defiance of the UN and it's resolutions- a legitimate reason to invade by itself, the fact that Saddam was supporting terrorists, the obvious realization that war would invariably have come in the future), consider this:  

"The NBCs Saddam Hussein used on the Kurds were sold to him by America and Britian for use in the Iran-Iraq war. Never forget who created Saddam Hussein. We did."

We went in to clean up our joint mess.  You did at first, then left, deserting us.  Ooooh, good point, Britain was our ALLY[/i] in Iraq until the going got tough.  What happened?  Tongue  Tongue  Tongue



-I believe the Bush administration has problems; all administrations do.
-I make a point of calling them French fries, and continue to study French in school.
-Anti-US feelings came before anti-French ones.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2004, 08:43:17 PM by Lord Lanair » Logged

- I'm scissors.  Nerf rock.  Paper's fine.

-It's not the mind control that kills people; it's the fall damage.

-Que sera, sera.
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