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Night Spawn
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« on: June 29, 2004, 01:53:47 PM »

Lanair referred me to "HQ" to start a thread on apologetics, so I'm guessing I chose the right place.

A short, yet important introduction:

In recent times, there has been a great movement going on in the intellectual community.  That being God.  Even Time magazine devoted an article to the recent rise of God in intellectual circles (actual quote is the second quote in my sig).  Atheists, themselves, (for example, Quentin Smith) admit the smartest philosophers alive today are theistic (God believing) philosophers... and are Christian.  Don't misinterpret me, for this isn't an argument from authority, but is pointing towards the fact that Christianity isn't as irrational as people once thought.  Some great intellects exist in our day and see/defend it as perfectly rational.
Also, pretty much every classical philosophical argument for God's existence has been resurrected and shown valid or logical (even the ontological argument).  Not just philosophical, but also biblical arguments.  These may be introduced in the discussion.


I guess I'll start off with:  Do you guys have any questions you've always wondered concerning the Christian God that you would like to discuss in a friendly way?  So far, I see all of you as very friendly people, so I'm expecting such responses.  It might be a change of environment for me... I'm used to much worse reactions. Wink

Later, guys,

Spawn
« Last Edit: June 30, 2004, 08:35:42 AM by Night Spawn » Logged

"Atheism turns out to be too simple.  If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -C.S. Lewis

"God is making a comeback.  Most intriguingly, this is happening, not among theologians or ordinary believers, but in the crisp intellectual circles of academic philosophers, where the consensus had long banished the Almighty from fruitful discourse"  -Time magazine
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« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2004, 01:59:24 PM »

Damn, was gonna start this myself, but I gotta go out... I'll be back in an hour or two though. Smiley
« Last Edit: June 29, 2004, 01:59:36 PM by SS » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2004, 02:14:16 PM »

ok i'm not gonna be able to put this in the best english, as it's not my first language and my school is over now so i don't have to do  it properly anymore Tongue

1. I don't think it's likely that God exists, as in the thousands of years people believed and people did not believe there is no single man that was able to prove that there is something like a 'God'.

2. I think the christian believe is a danger to society. The pope should be put in jail for the rest of his life (prolly not long), i'm sure there are more reasons but him saying condoms are evil has killed like a million people, if you consider him like that he's worse then Bin Laden...
(^you should be able to react on that last sentence with a lot of energy  Tongue )

3. I think a good half of the wars fought in the world's history are because of a 'God'. Even if there is something like a God he should be ashamed of himselve and hide very well, if he was a 'good' God he should have destructed himself a long long time ago, would've saved us a lot of trouble.

4. If there's something like a 'heaven', and the only way to get there was by living with all the rules the church gives, i don't think i'd want to live there, cause it would be full of boring people in a beautifull place... I'd rather have a lot of fun in a stinky place. If God tells me i can only love one woman in my entire life, i think it's to big of a sacrifice and i don't think that if he truly is great and good and stuff he would not require me to stay with someone i don't want anymore, that's just cruel.


This is not the best argumentation i gave... but meh whatever just to get started and so you can show me your skills with a reaction.
 
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« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2004, 02:24:52 PM »

meh. i'm not too philosophical or anything, but you do raise a few good poitns. from the way i see it, i've been told there is one all my life and like had it pounded into my head so i go along with it. besides, if i said otherwise near my reactionaryly religious familiy, they would flip. that includes lanair. *readies the marshmallow gun*
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« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2004, 03:06:02 PM »

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Do you guys have any questions you've always wondered concerning the Christian God that you would like to discuss in a friendly way?

Yes, why are the Bible and Members of the Christian Church so hippocritical?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2004, 03:06:47 PM by RipperRoo » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2004, 03:26:04 PM »

Quote
just to get started and so you can show me your skills with a reaction.

I'll give it my best, which isn't much.


1.

(a) I think "proof" amounts to subjectivity - i.e. what may be proof enough for one person may not be proof enough for another.  I can name plenty of people who have proved the existence of God to others using arguments/evidences - Alvin Plantinga, C.S. Lewis, William Craig, Richard Swinburne, JP Holding, McDonald, etc.  So, it really amounts to how much proof is needed for a particular individual.  It also depends on the emotional state of the person (very important).  A person who has just experienced something terrible might have a closed mind and heart to any God, which might lead me to believe no argument will ever (or maybe just temporally) be enough.

(b) I like the way you start your number (1) out: "I don't think it's likely that God exists".  That seems to ring with some knowledge of epistemology, which is good.  No man will be able to absolutely prove God either does or does not exist, for that's proving a universal.  What we can do is examine the evidence (which is in abundance) and offer a conclusion based off of that evidence (it's reasonable that God exists even without evidence existing, though).  That conclusion won't be absolute, but more along the lines of "more likely" or "less likely".


2.

Well, I don't believe condoms are evil LOL  That's pretty radical, I agree.  I don't like it that those in an authorative position use it to make such statements, which aren't true.  It's reminiscient of Hitler claiming to be abiding by God's will by killing off Jews.  That's radical, absurd, and just outright inhumane.  All I can say is to judge whether or not the Bible makes such statements, which these individuals have a problem doing.  Of course they have a problem doing it, because it makes no such statements. Smiley


3.

This isn't God's fault, but man's fault.  I'm sure you're familiar with a writer by the name of Tolkien (creator of LOTR), well his best friend (the guy who converted him) gave an amazing defense to this.  He said something along the lines of:

'It is men, not God who have produced racks, whips, prisons, slavery, guns, bayonets, and bombs; it is by human avarice or human stupidity... that we have poverty and overwork." (The Problem of Pain, C.S. Lewis, p. 86)

People love to blame bad things on someone else.  This is evident throughout history - crusades, salem trials, 9/11, Hitler, etc.  The cause is just really themselves.


4.

(a) My, we just met and you think I'm a boring person already. Tongue  Seriously, though, if you don't want to go to Heaven because of the possibility of boring people being there, then that's the joy of free will, I guess.  Personally, if Heaven does exist, I can't wait to meet and talk to people like Tolkien and C.S. Lewis (among others).  I won't be bored at all.

(b) How can you truly be in love with that significant other, if you don't want her anymore?   I found the commandment very inviting even when I was an atheist.  I knew that marriage is a very important step in life and requires time and thought to decide whether or not you truly love this other person enough to share your entire life with her.  If you truly love a woman, you'll want to spend your entire life with her and her alone.  God realizes the importance of this and put it into action.
That's why you have to really give it time and much thought.  If you do, then you'll know for sure if that's the one.  If you don't, then the situation more than likely won't turn out too well.

This isn't just a commandment from God.  Society itself embraces this law.  I think the reason so many people feel the need to be married to one person alone is because of the reasonableness of it.  


May this be a fruitful discussion,

-Spawn
« Last Edit: June 29, 2004, 03:28:52 PM by Night Spawn » Logged

"Atheism turns out to be too simple.  If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -C.S. Lewis

"God is making a comeback.  Most intriguingly, this is happening, not among theologians or ordinary believers, but in the crisp intellectual circles of academic philosophers, where the consensus had long banished the Almighty from fruitful discourse"  -Time magazine
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« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2004, 03:37:26 PM »

Hello, Ripper.

Quote
why are the Bible and Members of the Christian Church so hippocritical?

A lot of Christians, in particular younger ones like myself, are going to go through stages of hypocrisy.  A lot of my friends and my brothers are disbelievers or doubters, so I tend to act the way they do or not be the way I should be.  I'm a hypocrite, in this sense.  It's a problem I need to work out.

The best answer I can think of is the nature of men and women.  Most [at times] tend to fall away or want to fall away from that which they hold dearest.  I'm sorry that myself and others are like that.
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"Atheism turns out to be too simple.  If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -C.S. Lewis

"God is making a comeback.  Most intriguingly, this is happening, not among theologians or ordinary believers, but in the crisp intellectual circles of academic philosophers, where the consensus had long banished the Almighty from fruitful discourse"  -Time magazine
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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2004, 04:49:29 PM »

I really don't know too much about Christianity, so forgive me if I come across as ignorant


Jesus, if he really existed, preached wonderful things such as forgiveness and love for one's fellow man and that you just had to follow this path if you wanted to get to heaven. So why has the Church come up with all these rules for getting into heaven? I think it cheapens Jesus's message
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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2004, 04:53:40 PM »

ripper, everyone is a hypocrit.  just because they are religious doesn't stop them from being human
« Last Edit: June 29, 2004, 04:54:14 PM by Firefairy_8 » Logged
Night Spawn
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2004, 05:02:52 PM »

Saladin,

I agree.  A lot of the rules really amount to denominational (i.e. man-made) rules.  I'm speaking on rules like hair-length, clothing, tithing, speaking in tongues in order to get to heaven, rules for women (which angers me), etc.  I don't know why they came up with those rules... an example of enforcing subjectively based preferences objectively, I guess.  That's why us Christians argue so much. Wink

It does something much worse than cheapen Jesus' message... it completely kills it.  This reminds me of a Tommy Tenney quote.  He writes something along the lines of, 'I've seen more of God in bars than I have in some churches.'
« Last Edit: June 29, 2004, 05:13:08 PM by Night Spawn » Logged

"Atheism turns out to be too simple.  If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -C.S. Lewis

"God is making a comeback.  Most intriguingly, this is happening, not among theologians or ordinary believers, but in the crisp intellectual circles of academic philosophers, where the consensus had long banished the Almighty from fruitful discourse"  -Time magazine
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« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2004, 05:49:41 PM »

Quote
I guess I'll start off with: Do you guys have any questions you've always wondered concerning the Christian God that you would like to discuss in a friendly way? So far, I see all of you as very friendly people, so I'm expecting such responses. It might be a change of environment for me... I'm used to much worse reactions. 

Ouch... welcome to my reality, Night Spawn.

Heres a couple to begin, as dinner is ready:

-If God is so great, why do bad things happen to good people? Its an oldie, but a goodie.
-As stated by Opper, the vast majority of atrocities committed on this Earth are done so in the name of a Deity. Assuming that God, Allah, etc, are all the same deity (as we cant all be right), why does he allow this?
-If you're going to say 'because they sinned' or something similar, sorry, that shit doesnt cut it with me. How did a child thats beaten to death by an abuse parent sin?

And, finally, do you believe that Jesus existed?


-DeMysteriis.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2004, 06:06:33 PM by Rug » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2004, 06:07:59 PM »

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(b) How can you truly be in love with that significant other, if you don't want her anymore?
That, I agree with - if you're truly in love, you'll want someone forever.

Quote
If you truly love a woman, you'll want to spend your entire life with her and her alone.
That, I don't agree with. I see no reason why love should be limited by gender or number. ie: I think it's entirely possible for three people to love each other. Afterall, most people have that many family members.
Yeah, so 'family love' is a different type of love, but I think 'partner love' is ultimately a richer extension of that, and I don't think it should be forced that only male-female marriages should be allowed.
(Oh, I should note that I don't equate love and sex, like some people might.)

Quote
This isn't just a commandment from God.  Society itself embraces this law.
Screw Society. According to society, anyone who sits at a computer playing online games is a sad no-life loser, yet that is a blatant fallacy.
Society just supports that which it sees as normal, and dissaproves of anything that doesn't fit into it's normality, despite the fact that a 'normal' society must have extremes to actually be mathematically normal.




Now for my questions/thoughts. Smiley


1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. (or: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.)
If the Yahweh is the only god, why does he feel put this as the First Commandment?
It's not even a "I am the only god." He is specifically saying not to worship other gods. For me, he is as good as saying that he is just one of many gods.

Also, Genesis. This place "Nod, on the east of Eden" - it has people in it. Where did these people come from? If Yahweh made them, why does Genesis only focus on Adam and Eve? The logical explanation is that he didn't make these other people. Maybe another god created them. Maybe they evolved from monkeys.

Two examples which require little thought to take as a specific admission of not being the only god, yet so many Christians hold onto (what I perceive to be) the man-made concept of Yahweh being the only god.

Add into that logic - nothing at all in existance is proven unique. I'm not talking about at a characteristic level; I'm sure there are some people that have unique facial features, or whatever. My point is that everything is multiple - animals, people, plants, planets, galaxies. Even the universe isn't proven to be unique - there's various theories of alternative universeses/multiverses and so on.
Now if all these are the case, why should there only be a single god?

Well, perhaps there is, and this god created the entire multiverse. Perhaps the reason why this god 'lets' suffering happen is because he's too busy with some other part of the universe which is in a worse state.
For a while, when I was religious/scientific, that was what I thought.
Then I effectively rejected everything and built up ideas from scratch, and it came to me what an absurd concept that was. Yeah, it might work logically, but it just doesn't fit.
So, the other option is that there isn't a single god. Which means there's either lots of them, or none at all. I currently swing both/neither way here - it's never possible to prove against that theory, but there is insufficient evidence to 'prove' for.



Next thing, Jesus. Why do Christians worship him? Yahweh has specifically said not to worship anyone or anything else. Jesus never asked to be worshipped, either.
Yeah, so maybe he was the Son of God, but that doesn't mean you worship him. Not when both him and his father have said not to.
If I was still a Christian - well, I wouldn't be. I'd call myself a ... whatever, something that specifically does not represent a worship of Jesus, because it's completely against the laws of the religion!


Um, I'm a bit hungry, but I've still got various other things that annoy me which I'll post later. Smiley
« Last Edit: June 29, 2004, 06:09:31 PM by SS » Logged

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Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming
defiance with the last breath, to spit in the Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day.
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« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2004, 06:23:24 PM »

Quote
ok i'm not gonna be able to put this in the best english, as it's not my first language and my school is over now so i don't have to do  it properly anymore Tongue

3. I think a good half of the wars fought in the world's history are because of a 'God'. Even if there is something like a God he should be ashamed of himselve and hide very well, if he was a 'good' God he should have destructed himself a long long time ago, would've saved us a lot of trouble.
Opper:  You speak the best second language English on the planet Earth.  If you go to DT forums...there's this guy there named liar and what he speaks is incomprehensible (Wink @ Spawn)

Ok moving on, a lot of wars are supposedly based on God, but realisticly today's battles are not God's fault.  People are the one's to blame.  They are judgemental towards others and are very stubborn in the way they believe.  God doesn't tell you to go out and kill for your faith.  People w/ their own minds do that.
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« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2004, 06:29:24 PM »

Quote
Ok moving on, a lot of wars are supposedly based on God, but realisticly today's battles are not God's fault. People are the one's to blame. They are judgemental towards others and are very stubborn in the way they believe. God doesn't tell you to go out and kill for your faith. People w/ their own minds do that.

If God doesnt want people to do it, he should put a stop to it. What was that phrase Christians love repeating? Inaction to allow evil deeds is evil...?
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« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2004, 06:34:39 PM »

God can't force people to do things.  That's one of the good things about God...he lets you choose how you want to live your life (in sin or righteousness)
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