Tolkien

[Lord Lanair]

How could I have not already bought one of Tolkein's greatest works?  LOL

And why did you start your quotes in the middle of the book?  :hehe:  

[LadyofLight]

Of Beren and Luthien is my favorite substory, though running close with The Tale of Turin.

And anothe quote:

There Beren buried his fathers bones, and raised a cairn of boulders above him, and swore
upon it an oath of vengeance. First there for he pursued the Orcs that had slain his father and his
kinsmen, and he found their camp by night at Rivil's Well above the Fen of Serech, and because of
his wood craft he came near to their fire unseen. There their captain made boast of his deeds, and he
held up the hand of Barahir that he had cut off as a token for Sauron that their mission was fulfilled;
and the ring of Felagund was on that hand. Then Beren sprang from behind rock, and slew captain,
and taking the hand and the ring he escaped, being defended by fate for the Orcs were dismayed,
and their arrows wild.

Silly orcs.

LadyofLight

[Lord Lanair]

I say the earlier part of the book is better, when Morgoth and Sauron have less of a control over the land (basically before the secondborn arrive).  


And... stupid orcs!  LOL  

[Filran]

My dad has a copy of the Silmarillion. Its about 30+ years old. He's been trying to find it for years now...

[LadyofLight]

The earlier parts are great to but I just find I can place myself in Beren/Luthien/Turin's place better and can feel more emotionally attatched to the characters, though this could simply be because Tolkien developed these stories more.  I mean, proportionately to the amount of time that passes look how long the story of Beren and Luthien alone is.  Many many pages.

Oh, and I first discovered the Silmarillion from my dad's really old copy.  That's the one I sort of wore out so I had to buy another.

Quote:

Thereafter for four years more Beren wandered still upon Dorthonion, a solitary outlaw; but
he became the friend of birds and beasts, and they aided him, and did not betray him, and from that
time forth he ate no flesh nor slew any living thing that was not in the service of Morgoth. He did
not fear death, but only captivity, and being bold and desperate he escaped both death and bonds;
and the deeds of lonely daring that he achieved were noised abroad throughout Beleriand, and the
tail of them came even into Doriath. At length Morgoth set a price upon his head no less than the
price upon the head of Fingon, High King of the Noldor; but the Orcs fled rather at the rumour of
his approach than sought him out. Therefore and army was sent against him under the command of
Sauron; and Sauron brought werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had
imprisoned in their bodies.

LadyofLight

[Lord Lanair]

Ok, now we have some action.  You're gonna have to post again soon to continue the story. LOL

By the way, why didn't Morgoth just leave Beren to live out his short (human) life in Dorthonion, rather than go through all the trouble of trying to catch him?  <_<    

[whiteknight]

i recently aquired a first American edition of the Silmarillion that i'm extremely proud of

[matt_the_shark]

By the way, why didn't Morgoth just leave Beren to live out his short (human) life in Dorthonion, rather than go through all the trouble of trying to catch him?  <_<

ummmm, have you read the silmarillion?  if so, remember what he does at to morgoth in angband(hope that's spelled right).and he's killing all these orcs and everything and stuff.  of course morgoth's gonna go after him!

by the way, I like the story of turin and.........I forget the name, but I know that he is turin's cousin.  but of the two, I like Turin's best.  He's cool, and he kills alot of people and stuff.  and also, that story has alot of detail, and I like that.  

[Lord Lanair]

ummmm, have you read the silmarillion?  if so, remember what he does at to morgoth in angband(hope that's spelled right).and he's killing all these orcs and everything and stuff.  of course morgoth's gonna go after him!

He only goes to Angband later, after Sauron and his army come to get him.    

[LadyofLight]

He goies after Beren because he dare attack the "great" Morgoth.  Beren fights well and has become well known, which makes Morgoth look bad and people fear him less.  Basically, Morgoth is trying to save face.  Plus, he is inherently evil, so will always do the evil thing, not something kind like let him live.

How did you find a first edition?

Quote:

All that land was now become filled with evil, and all clean things were departing from it; and
Beren was pressed so hard that at last he was forced to flee from Dorthonion. In time of winter and
snow he forsook the land and grave of his father, and climbing into the high land of Doriath. There
it was put into his heart that he would go down into the Hidden Kingdom, where no mortal foot had
trodden. Terrible was his southward journey. Sheer were the precipices of Ered Gorgoroth, and
beneath their feet were shadows that were laid before the rising of the Moon. Beyond lay the
wilderness of Dungortheb, where the sorcery of Sauron and the power of Melian came together, and
horror and madness walked. There spiders of the fell race of Ungoliant abode, spinning their unseen
webs in which all living things were snared; and monsters wandered there that were born in the long
dark before the Sun, hunting silently with many eyes. No food for Elves or Men was there in that
haunted land, but death only. That journey is not accounted least among the great deeds of Beren,
but he spoke of it to no one after, lest the horror return into his mind; and none know how he found
a way, and so came by paths that no Man nor Elf else ever dared to tread to the borders of Doriath.
And he passed through the mazes that Melian wove about the kingdom of Thingol, even as she had
foretold; for a great doom lay upon him.

LadyofLight

[Lord Lanair]

Just a question- why does Tolkein always use the word "doom" when describing a person's fate?  :miffed:

And if Morgoth was half as intelligent than he was evil, he would have realized the power of Beren before the situation got out of control.  LOL  

[LadyofLight]

Tolkien likely uses doom instead of fate because it has a darker connotation, and in the end fate really is dark.  If you are human, you die.  If you are elf your soul is bound to earth for all time, going through all the pain, grief, and loss of this world.  So using a word with a darker connotation seems more appropriate.

Also, Morgoth didn't back off Beren because he was proud.  Beside Eru himself he was the most powerful being in existence, and he didn't think anyone could touch him.  The likelihood of Beren's success was so low it really didn't even seem a possibility.  The other possibilty is that Beren's potential for power is why he wanted to kill him before he could get any stronger.  Also, evil is proud, and it is one of their greatest weaknesses.  Morgoth felt impenetrable, and maybe therefore wasn't careful enough as he let Luthien sing instead of killing them both instantly.  His pride caused him to let his guard down so to speak.

Quote(Yay! My favorite part):

It is told in the Lay of Leithian that Beren came stumbling into Doriath grey and bowed as
with many years of woe, so great had been the torment of the road. But wandering in the summer in
the woods of Neldoreth he came upon Lúthien, daughter of Thingol and Melian, at a time of
evening under moonrise, as she danced upon the unfading grass in the glades beside Esgalduin.
Then all memory of his pain departed from him, and he fell into an enchantment; for Lúthien was
the most beautiful of all the Children of Ilúvatar. Blue was her raiment as the unclouded heaven, but
her eyes were grey as the starlit evening; her mantle was sewn with golden flowers, but her hair was
dark as the shadows of twilight. As the light upon the leaves of trees, as the voice of clear waters, as
the stars above the mists of the world, such was her glory and her loveliness; and in her face was a
shining light.

LadyofLight

[Drauka]

I disagree. The sim is overfilled with masses of information. But it is a difficult read because of the complete lack of fluff. And I strongly feel the trilogy is the best. (Plus his son had a hand in everything except the trilogy)

[LadyofLight]

It is difficult to read and takes a long time because it takes concentration as every sentence counts.  But that's what it is, a condensation of Tolkien's life works: everything he devoted his time and energy to involving middle-earth in one book.  If you want more filler, read the History of Middle Earth series, which fills out more.  It fills twelve volumes to be exact.

But I think only including the sentence that need to be in the story can make it more impactful.  All the weaker points have been cut out.  It leaves only the more powerful and intense pieces, as well as necessary plot.

Plus, in the case of Beren and Luthien and in the Tale of Turin these areas were developed more thoroughly than the rest and have that beautiful detail that made LOTR so wonderful and captivating.

I'm not saying it's necessarily better, but perhaps equal, and it's refreshing to read something new when you can't even get a hamburger without hearing about LOTR. I can imagine it for myself, picture in my own mind the moment Beren sees Luthien in the woods and falls in love, I have my own picture of his face, his composure, without it beeing shaped by an existing film.   I love LOTR, by I love the Silmarillion perhaps in a more deep manner as it is largely unaffected by all this fluff society has attatched too it.

Another Quote:

But she vanished from his sight; and he became dumb, as one that is bound under a spell, and
he strayed long in the woods, wild and wary as a beast, seeking for her. In his heart he called her
Tinúviel, that signifies Nightingale, daughter of twilight, in the Grey-elven tongue, for he knew no
other name for her. And he saw her afar as leaves in the winds of autumn, and in winter as a star
upon a hill, but a chain was upon his limbs.

LadyofLight

[Lord Lanair]

I prefer battle scenes, or action ones, in Tolkein's books.  My eyes sorta glaze over if I have to read too many pages describing someone's appearance.  

And the History of Middle Earth series; is it written by Tolkein?  Because I've never heard of it.  :miffed: