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Author Topic: for the USA peoples  (Read 115160 times)
Perdition
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« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2004, 10:20:08 PM »

Nice imagery moley.
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mole
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« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2004, 11:14:25 PM »

well it thtought so, glad you agree but then i guessed you might  
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Quote
Yiff Hunter says:
and the last question do u get a sudden eye twicth and shudder wen i say :

CLEAN?
RipperRoo says:
yes
Yiff Hunter says:
rite ive declared u imorally peasant like
Lord Lanair
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« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2004, 02:33:15 AM »

I just need to say that we do NOT need a liberal president.  What you're suggesting, Rug, is that the U.S. turn into an isolationist country.  We'd only focus on our domestic issues, and not international ones.  Once that happens,  the malicious powers (i.e. terrorists) we have kept restrained or in other cases targeted on us will have a reign of chaos. The rest of the world will give into their demands, since they all are already focusing on their domestic issues.

The U.S. needs to be a world policeman because we're the only nation powerful enough, we're the only nation who cares (Europeans in general have turned passive and apathetic), and if we don't, the Western world is basically screwed.  Now tell me, who's best for that task?  Wink
« Last Edit: September 08, 2004, 02:33:49 AM by Lord Lanair » Logged

- I'm scissors.  Nerf rock.  Paper's fine.

-It's not the mind control that kills people; it's the fall damage.

-Que sera, sera.
mole
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« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2004, 04:24:08 PM »

well good old history lessons

P.E.E.

1. Point

Quote
No. He deals firmly with THE WRONG FUCKING ISSUE..

Go back to sorting out your civil problems, then when thats all nice and goodly, you can go about policing the world. The first step in this is electing someone who knows how to govern a country. Like, gods forbid, Ralph Nader!

But, hey, its not like America will ever elect a hardcore left-wing president. So I'll take nice, moderate Kerry, thankyou.

2. Evidence

Quote
we have kept restrained

Quote
the world will give into their demands

Quote
The U.S. needs to be a world policeman

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we're the only nation powerful enough

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we're the only nation who cares

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if we don't, the Western world is basically screwed

3. Explanation

Quote
Now tell me, who's best for that task?

not the USA
« Last Edit: September 08, 2004, 04:25:12 PM by mole » Logged

Quote
Yiff Hunter says:
and the last question do u get a sudden eye twicth and shudder wen i say :

CLEAN?
RipperRoo says:
yes
Yiff Hunter says:
rite ive declared u imorally peasant like
Rug
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« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2004, 04:49:39 PM »

Quote
we have kept restrained

Er... what? All your 'war on terror' has done is MAKE THINGS WORSE.[/i]

You have isolated and demonised a whole religion through the acts of your government. There are some very pointed comments by readers on the bbc news website, saying that it has become a war on Islam than a war on terror. This is incorrect (I hope), but a lot closer to the truth...

If it was a war on terror, why are you not doing anything about the hideous terrorist atrocities in Darfur?[/size]

Answer: Because the Sudanese *gasp* have nothing you want!

Quote
The U.S. needs to be a world policeman because we're the only nation powerful enough, we're the only nation who cares (Europeans in general have turned passive and apathetic), and if we don't, the Western world is basically screwed. Now tell me, who's best for that task? wink.gif

No, you need to stop making things worse. YOU HAVE SOLVED LESS PROBLEMS THAN YOU HAVE CREATED. Europe is passive because they do not like making a bad situation worse. Sure, Saddam needed to go. He did not need to go after an illegal invasion on false pretences.

No one country *needs* to be a world policeman. Read this next sentence carefully.

THAT IS THE JOB OF THE UNITED NATIONS.[/b]

The U.N is largely ineffectual, because a certain world superpower shits on their authority on a regular basis.

The world would be easier if the USA spent some time in contemplative thought, and stopped being so goddamned asinine and childish. You are not the ones to solve the worlds problems. Solve you own, then you can CONTRIBUTE to the solution to world issues, as an equal with all other nations. You are not better than everyone else.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2004, 04:50:18 PM by Rug » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2004, 05:48:26 PM »

^ what he said.
we need to stay the fuck out of other people's business and try and fix our own fucked up country.
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mole
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« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2004, 06:11:42 PM »

*votes evil for president*
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Quote
Yiff Hunter says:
and the last question do u get a sudden eye twicth and shudder wen i say :

CLEAN?
RipperRoo says:
yes
Yiff Hunter says:
rite ive declared u imorally peasant like
Lord Lanair
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« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2004, 02:49:26 AM »

*doesn't*  :hehe:

Um... rug... if we were in a war against Islam, how is Pakistan our strongest ally?  

I'll admit that the war in Iraq was started under questionable circumstances (ah what the hell, we actually had no right to go in without a better excuse), but now look at the situation:  the evil madman, Saddam, is gone, the world is safe from his plans to build WMD (I do believe he was developing nuke technology), the Iraqi genocides have ended, and with a bit of luck and some strong support we'll finally have the first democratic Islamic state!  Imagine how that can positivly affect the entire region in the future.  However, all the Muslim rulers of the more despotic countries surrounding Iraq are resisting this quest for reform and improvement in Iraq (if we suceed, general revolt will probably follow as people demand more civil and political rights, and the old Islamic rulers will lose their power).  That is why we aren't progressing in Iraq as projected, all these Islamic countries who pay us lip service and secretly support anti-US groups.   Wink

I will admit that the US's foreign policy decisions are based on the country's needs and desires (i.e. oil, trading partners, resources, etc) BUT..... what country does not use their foreign policy to make their territory more sucessful.  We are not complete humanitarians.

The U.N. is ineffective because it is full of politicians from weak and old countries who do nothing but sit and debate, while accomplishing NOTHING.  The U.S. acts only because the U.N. refuses to do so!  Speaking of which, when was the last sucessful U.N. operation?  Israel?  No.  Bosnia?  No.  Iraq?  No.

I'd like to see how the western world held up without U.S. support.  We'll withdraw all our troops from NATO countries (but *gasp* they're providing much needed revenue for those nations, especially Germany), we'll stop sending financial aid to a majority of the world, we'll stop fighting maniacal leaders like Kim Jong-Il and see how long peace and stability remains!

Oh, and finally, while the U.S. is not superior to other nations, it does have the strongest military, most advanced science and medical programs, the largest economy out of any country, and is the only superpower remaining in the world.   Cheesy

P.S. Thank you, rug for this interesting discussion! Smiley
« Last Edit: September 09, 2004, 02:54:55 AM by Lord Lanair » Logged

- I'm scissors.  Nerf rock.  Paper's fine.

-It's not the mind control that kills people; it's the fall damage.

-Que sera, sera.
mole
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« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2004, 04:31:54 PM »

i'd put large amount of money to a bet that if we withdrew all the british scientists from your country and properly funded them here (which we havent done in far too long) we would quickly excell past you

Quote
Speaking of which, when was the last sucessful U.N. operation? Israel? No. Bosnia? No. Iraq? No.

Speaking of which, when was the last sucessful U.S. operation? Iraq? No.  Somalia? No. Vietnam? No.


what you should do is stay out of country's that give you foot holds and resources and begin concentrating on how to sort problems lioke north korea which is far more dangerous than anything else in the world, excluding several extremist terrorist groups

Quote
Saddam, is gone, the world is safe from his plans to build WMD

something good! Saddams links to microsoft have been thwarted and he wont have a windows media desktop program after all
« Last Edit: September 09, 2004, 05:01:14 PM by mole » Logged

Quote
Yiff Hunter says:
and the last question do u get a sudden eye twicth and shudder wen i say :

CLEAN?
RipperRoo says:
yes
Yiff Hunter says:
rite ive declared u imorally peasant like
Rug
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« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2004, 04:53:10 PM »

Quote
... rug... if we were in a war against Islam, how is Pakistan our strongest ally?

Actually, its Saudi Arabia. I didn't say you were at war with Islam, I said it was closer to the truth. Read the words.

Quote
the evil madman, Saddam, is gone, the world is safe from his plans to build WMD

The one piece of evidence that Colin Powell presented for Iraq having a nuclear weapons program, is their order for aluminum tubes with an adonized coating, which Colin says could be used to make gas centrifuges for synthesizing enriched uranium.

1, The tubes were the wrong size for centrifuges.
2, If you wanted to use these tube for centrifuges, the very first you'd have to do is... can you guess?

Mill off the adonized coating.

No evidence of any other type of NBC (nuclear, biological, chemical. WMD is not the correct term.) weapon has been found, either.

So, no, I don't think they were developing a nuke. If they were, no credible evidence has been put forward by your government.

Quote
with a bit of luck and some strong support we'll finally have the first democratic Islamic state!

Whup de do? This is another case of you 'solving' other people problems. Currently, Iraq is a warzone. You cannot have a democracy in a warzone. Iraq is going to remain a warzone for the forseeable future.

Quote
...why we aren't progressing in Iraq as projected, all these Islamic countries who pay us lip service and secretly support anti-US groups

And you say you're not anti-Islam?

Er... what?

The frickin Grand Ayatollah had to solve a problem that America started, in laying siege to Muktadr al Sadr's forces. He is, as you may guess by his title, the most senior cleric in Shiite Islam. So, yeah, all the powerful Muslim leaders are opposing you...

The surrounding countries are not a reason for your shortfalls in enforcing security in the country you illegally conquered.

You may try to blame them, but, frankly, your reasoning there sounds like a half-assed attempt to justify the upcoming war in Iran...

Quote
I will admit that the US's foreign policy decisions are based on the country's needs and desires (i.e. oil, trading partners, resources, etc) BUT..... what country does not use their foreign policy to make their territory more sucessful.

Foreign policy should always be based on your countries needs. To, and this is the important bit, a certain extent. Big type bit!

War over resources can never be justified to any decent human being.

You CANNOT goto war over oil! Invading Iraq does not make America a paragon of justice and light in the world, because you ousted a despicable dictator. It makes you a Global Bully, who is quite prepared to invade other nations because they have something you want. And I imagine ol' Dubya would cry and throw his toys out of the pram if he doesn't get what he wants.

Quote
The U.N. is ineffective because it is full of politicians from weak and old countries who do nothing but sit and debate, while accomplishing NOTHING.  The U.S. acts only because the U.N. refuses to do so!  Speaking of which, when was the last sucessful U.N. operation?  Israel?  No.  Bosnia?  No.  Iraq?  No.

Kosovo. If you're only counting ones that have more or less come to a conclusion.

Weak and old countries? So, you think the US is fully qualified to invade anyone it feels like... because it has less than 300 years of history?

Perhaps you've heard the term 'respect your elders' ? No useful action will ever come from unilateral actions. Reform will come through negotiation, and negotioation cannot occur if Americans like yourself regard other countries as inferior.

Which is what you just said.

Oops.

Quote
I'd like to see how the western world held up without U.S. support.  We'll withdraw all our troops from NATO countries (but *gasp* they're providing much needed revenue for those nations, especially Germany), we'll stop sending financial aid to a majority of the world, we'll stop fighting maniacal leaders like Kim Jong-Il and see how long peace and stability remains!

That isn't necessary, though. You just need to stop shitting on the treaties you've signed, and the agreements that are in force, that say who you can and cannot invade. This is determined by the U.N, not America. If America does not like this, they should join the three or four banana republics who are not U.N members.

On a side note, America isn't actually a party to several world agreements... like the Kyoto convention... and the International Rights of the Child... so maybe they have an excuse for not caring.1

Nah.

Quote
Oh, and finally, while the U.S. is not superior to other nations, it does have the strongest military, most advanced science and medical programs, the largest economy out of any country, and is the only superpower remaining in the world.   Cheesy

Your whole tone suggests otherwise. Saying you're not superior doesn't mean you don't believe it. READ WHAT YOU WRITE, FOR FUCKS SAKE.

You sound like you're boasting about the superpower thing.. why? Does this world need a superpower? No. The only reason to have a superpower is to hold another in check... and as America is the only one, there is no reason to have all those weapons and NBCs of yours...

Three words for Dubya to look at, and take in:

START. Three. Treaty.[/size]2




1, One of two countires in the U.N, in the case of the International Rights of the Child. The other is Somalia, I believe. The USA also produces the most greenhouse gases of any industrialised nation, with perhaps the exception of China (I don't have up to date numbers). So not being party to the Kyoto convetion is a big deal.
2, START is the Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Weapons De-Proliferation treaty.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2004, 05:04:31 PM by Rug » Logged
evilknight
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« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2004, 09:03:03 PM »

hmmmm,
small thing i just randomly thought of.
genghis khan did something like this to, didnt he?
he "united" his people, and then went to war over resources vital to their survival. for them, it was grazing land, for us, oil.
meh, here's hoping we dont have to wait as long as they did for him to die though.
president bush, feel free to exercise your right to blow me.
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Hmmm. The court will take a 15 minute recess to fix the judicial...bench...thingy. ~Ethan
mole
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« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2004, 10:50:31 PM »

this is a modern day view though, im all for the dark ages free for all but on a dark ages scale, id rather fight with swords and bows than guns and chemicals
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Quote
Yiff Hunter says:
and the last question do u get a sudden eye twicth and shudder wen i say :

CLEAN?
RipperRoo says:
yes
Yiff Hunter says:
rite ive declared u imorally peasant like
Lord Lanair
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« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2004, 12:30:53 AM »

Ok, I have some time to respond, rug...  hehe

1) Islam- Pakistan is in fact our strongest supporter (the Saudis have been increasingly reluctant in their dealings with us, while the Pakistanis have captured quite a few Al Qaeda terrorists).

2)  WMDs or NBCs... whatever... can you honestly say that Saddam was not planning to build at least one type of them?  He'd already used chemical weapons in his wars with the Kurds and Iran, so we know he had the potential to unleash even more of them against his other enemies.  Removing him was essential... even if we had waited until a few years later, he would still have been a menace to the global community, and would need to go.  Now, did we do things "legitimatly?"  That's an opinion question, just like "do the ends justify the means?"

3)  Iraq is a war zone, but it is changing!  I don't know for sure, but I believe there have already been elections.... if not they'll come soon.

4)  About the Ayatollah- first of all, he only held off al-Sadr... he didn't support the U.S.  Seconly, he's a SHI'ITE Muslim, while the majority are Sunnis.  Do you think the Shi'ites, who gained many rights when the U.S. occupied and Saddam was kicked out, would complain?

5)  There will be no Iranian war.  Show me proof to the contrary, just as you're demandind I do.  <_<

6)  War over resources, in my opinion, is justified.  But it was not the driving reason to invade, and isn't in our country's opinion.  We needed other justifications:  We saw a percieved global threat in Saddam, and eliminated it.  We also saw human rights disasters, which we were able to stop.  We also secured oil necessary for the running of our country, keeping millions of our citizens alive- through heating, petrol use for plastics and other products, money generated from oil industries, etc.

7)  Kosovo was finally calmed because of U.S. interaction, and despite the bungling UN.  If you think we're acting unilaterally (and I don't think so... we do have allies supporting the war in Iraq), maybe that's because of the inaction of every other major power in the world.  Other countries are not inferior, just unwilling.  There's a big difference.

Cool  Do you know what sarcasm is?  We are the most advanced nation.  Europe would be nothing without the U.S.  WE rebuilt your continent after WWII, lifting you out of certain depression/communism, WE continue to provide military and economic aid to you, WE are trying to PROTECT you, and all you can do is spit on us!?!?  Show some gratitude!   :angry:  :angry:  :angry:

Sorry... got carried away. 9)  I agree, the U.S. should be abiding by Kyoto, and should accept more UN decisions, but considering how we view the UN as a waste of our time at this current point, we have little incentive to do so.
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- I'm scissors.  Nerf rock.  Paper's fine.

-It's not the mind control that kills people; it's the fall damage.

-Que sera, sera.
evilknight
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« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2004, 12:36:46 AM »

britain, after reading lanair's post, ive come to this conclusion:
taxation without representation really wasnt so bad. wanna come run the country again?
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HaHa. This post cost SS .5 cents! So Sayeth the Evilknight.
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« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2004, 01:16:08 AM »

Then nothing will ever get done!  :hmmm:

I can sum up my argument here: if you people are griping so much about the US taking a proactive stance in the world, see what happens when we leave.  Invariably, some nation comes, imploring us to aid them in their problems (for example, WWII and Britain... since I can't think of another one right now).  Once we do, and remain aiding other countries, protestors arise that demand our withdrawl.  It's a no-win situation, though it is a fact that the world operates better with US imput.... not under our command or domination, but with our aid, and due to our undeniable power, often with us in the lead.  Wink

Lemme ask you this- what have Europeans done recently that sucessfully soved a global issue?  Communism?  Terrorism?  Poverty/human rights abuses in Africa, Bosnia, Kurdistan, etc...?  None of the above!  Since you refuse to lead, we end up doing it.  Wink

Somewhat relevent question- If the US is supposedly so evil and wrong, why does everybody in the world try to emulate our fashions and practices, and why do so many people, even Europeans (a German woman I met in Turkey said she hated living in Leipzig, and wanted to come here as soon as possible) want to immigrate?  Smiley  
« Last Edit: September 10, 2004, 01:21:55 AM by Lord Lanair » Logged

- I'm scissors.  Nerf rock.  Paper's fine.

-It's not the mind control that kills people; it's the fall damage.

-Que sera, sera.
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