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Author Topic: Festering inside me  (Read 38706 times)
GandalfTheOld
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« Reply #75 on: May 01, 2004, 11:13:14 PM »

I already mentioned this, (2 Peter 3:9), but apparently you didn't bother opening it up and reading it Tongue
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Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you  because he does not desire any to be destroyed by desires all to attain to repentance.

Insecurity?  He already proved his power and right to authority as creator, and by being able to punish.  If he couldn't do either of that, that would have proved his incapability.  Besides, Adam and Eve chose to go against God's will and instead chose to "know good and bad" and to be able to decide what's good and bad.  They willingly separated from their originator of life, and thus away from eternal life.  Separating from eternal life also means the opposite of life, which is disease and death.  Since the original parents thought they could rule themselves better than God, God gave them the chance.
Which is more justified: giving humans a chance to try out their rule over themselves, or destroying them immediately for their disloyalty? (rhetoric)

And when I meant "some vague concept of an invisible force", I meant the concept of "eternal soul".  Ezekiel 18:4 : "...The soul that is sinning--it itself will die."

You can't bring your wealth into another world, that material wealth means nothing when you die.  Punishment for sin is that eternal death, the opposite is reward for loyalty, which is eternal life.  Blatant sinners will see eternal death, and never glimpse at eternal life.

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it's been a while since i've been this serious...
 
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« Reply #76 on: May 01, 2004, 11:52:31 PM »

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Besides, Adam and Eve chose to go against God's will and instead chose to "know good and bad" and to be able to decide what's good and bad.
If I was given the choice between an eternity as a mindless slave, or a few decades as an independent outcast, I'd choose the latter every time. Especially if I would gain the power to know for certain if my actions were good or bad ones.



When you were a young child, and didn't know very much, you probably did some thing that are considered wrong... knocking things over, biting things, throwing food about, etc?
Let's say you found a jar of honey, managed to open it, and started spooning it into your mouth... and over your face and the floor. Then your mum and dad walk into the room and see what you've done. Of course, they respond by throwing you out of the house and telling you to live on the streets. All because you were hungry.
Of course, that doesn't happen. What they actually do is tell you not to do it, perhaps give you a smack, and preferably explain why you shouldn't do it. That way you learn from the mistake and hopefully don't repeat it in future.
Adam and Eve didn't think they could rule better than God. They didn't know right from wrong, so they couldn't know that the serpent was stirring trouble. They trusted the creature because they had no reason not to. God could have given them a second chance before throwing them out. God could have protected the tree so they couldn't eat from it. Or prevented Satan from communicating through the snake.
Which reminds me... going off on a little tangent for a bit... I was taught that Satan was a fallen angel, kicked out of Heaven for rebelling against God. Yet Genesis doesn't mention Heaven, and God wouldn't have had messengers before he had anyone to give a message to, so what's the story with Satan's origin?
So, God not giving them a second chance means he didn't want to (and/or couldn't), and, for me, the clearest reason for not giving a second chance to someone is insecurity. He was scared that they would see he wasn't a decent ruler; effectively, that he was a shit parent.
That's just the way I see it, anyhow, but I'll offer tea and/or hot chocolate to any angel that wants to come and tell me otherwise. Wink
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Peter 'SpectralShadows' Boughton,
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defiance with the last breath, to spit in the Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day.
GandalfTheOld
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« Reply #77 on: May 02, 2004, 01:24:35 AM »

Genesis 2:16,17:
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"And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: 'From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction.  But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die."
At least in the case of Adam, he was clearly warned prior to the serpent's invitation, and so he had almost EVERY reason NOT to eat it.  He knew at least some thing of what's good and bad.
And then the serpent comes along and tells the woman, not the man who was warned directly from God about the tree, that even if she eats the fruit she would "positively NOT die." Genesis 3:4  (Which is no cause for gender discrimination, if I might add)

Problem with giving second chance is, after the eating thing, there's a whole series of fingerpointing.
Adam indirectly blames God for giving Eve, who was the reason why he ate the fruit. "...And the man went on to say: 'The woman whom you gave to be with me...'"
Eve indirectly blames God for creating the serpent, who was the reason why she ate the fruit. "...To this the woman replied: 'The serpent--it deceived me and so I ate.'"
Thus God is blamed for both creating humans and for creating living organisms.

As for why there was even a tree of knowledge of good and bad... Personally, it's one of the mute points since the Bible doesn't mention why.

Anywho, at least Adam knew clearly that it was wrong to eat the fruit, and why.  So he voluntarily(perhaps reluctantly, but who knows?) chose some other authority than God's, with the emphasis on the fact that he(and Eve) didn't ask God's permission or thought on the matter first.
And keep in mind that God actually even walked about back then: "Later they heard the voice of Jehovah God walking in the garden about the breezy part of the day..." (Genesis 3:Cool  They had no excuse to ask God when he's so near and available for couseling.

Well, I see God giving humans a chance to prove themselves right in being able to rule themselves without problems as giving a second chance.  If that's not what you're expecting, sorry.

If there are humans that decide instead that being under rulership of God is better than under humans, they will be taken under his protection when resurrected; those that remain rejecting that authority will be left to their own ruins.  I see that as perfectly fair. (Why should people still receive benefits from an authority they push away?)
Besides, you mentioned "mindless slave".  Adam and Eve, along with the angels, were given freedom of will, just that there are consequences for particular actions.

___________________________________________________
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Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
So heaven did exist.
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Genesis 1:26 "And God went on to say: 'Let us make man...'"
So God wasn't alone... at least by the time he started on creating humans, and had the assistance of others.
Jesus, if you accept that he lived in heaven before he came to earth, is also known as the Son of God, would be the first ones that helped God in the creation.
The name "Satan" was only given to the fallen angel AFTER he fell, not before when he was still in heaven, evidenced by Jesus' words: "he did not stand fast in the truth." (John 8:44)  Since he clearly existed by the time Eve was created, I would assume he even had a hand in creating humans, he saw how God had attention, he wanted that attention, and desired it all.  That desire drove him to trick Eve into going against God's authority, and led both Adam and Eve into a certain death, making Satan a "manslayer".
« Last Edit: May 02, 2004, 01:25:31 AM by GandalfTheOld » Logged

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« Reply #78 on: May 02, 2004, 12:27:21 PM »

Hmmm, fair enough. Still not sure I agree, but I can see the reasoning. Smiley


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Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
I've always taken that as meaning sky & land...
Especially with Genesis 1:15 "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years."


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Genesis 1:26 "And God went on to say: 'Let us make man...'"
Talking to the animals he had just created?
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Peter 'SpectralShadows' Boughton,
Seeker of Perfection, BPsite Sitelord.

Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming
defiance with the last breath, to spit in the Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day.
GandalfTheOld
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« Reply #79 on: May 02, 2004, 02:26:16 PM »

Well, it *does* say "heavens", not "heaven".  So I'd say he created more than one kind of heaven: the material heaven(sky), and the spiritual heaven(the place where God and the angels live).

Probably just a translation peculiarity, though.  

"Animals"... dunno if it does justice to call spiritual creatures(aka angels) as animals... They spoke, thought on their own, moved about, and helped God in the creation process (although not mentioned directly of their influence, nor of when they were actually created in the creation chronology).

A kind of what-if situation:
Genesis 1:9 says "Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground... the tree of life... and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad."

God only warned Adam that he will die if he eats from the one with knowledge of good and bad, not from the tree of life...
Did Adam eat from the tree of life?  What was its effects?
Or perhaps eternal life was given as long as Adam ate from that tree?

We may never know since either Adam chose not to, or that the Bible doesn't mention about it...
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« Reply #80 on: May 02, 2004, 03:30:28 PM »

Hmmm, didn't Adam & many of his ancestors live for hundreds of years each?
Perhaps the Tree of Life is what made that possible?
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Peter 'SpectralShadows' Boughton,
Seeker of Perfection, BPsite Sitelord.

Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming
defiance with the last breath, to spit in the Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day.
GandalfTheOld
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« Reply #81 on: May 02, 2004, 09:30:50 PM »

Perhaps.
Warning: Long rant/essay to follow
On the topic of eternal life... (kinda influenced a lot by gaming)
Immortality...

The concept of immortality has been pondered over many times in history... from the Chinese alchemists that experimented with mercury to create the elixir of immortality, to Spanish conquistadores in search of the fountain of youth in South and Central America... and then we arrive at the European idea of sustaining immortality through human blood: vampires.

They would be classified under the diverse category of undeads, which would include mummies, ghouls and skeletons.  Yet vampires are slightly different in that they would gain their necessary energy through blood, not flesh.  Blood is seen valued, the source of life for that organism, and holy, set aside for separate use, by many religions, and therefore has spiritual value instead of just nutrition for vampires.  The blood vampires seek are generally of pure virgins, without defilement from outside sources.

The logic is this, to be immortal is to live a life indefinitely.  A life of indefinite length is of no use without a purpose, any duration without purpose will cause boredom. ("Indefinite life of indefinite length.")  A purposeless life is therefore as good as dead, of nonexistence.

The sustenance through blood gives vampires a reason to exist, a purpose.  Yet taking in another organism's life blood, in other words the existence of that organism, means diluting the vampire's own existence...  The whole concept of a vampire's weakness/strength now comes in effect.

Through heavy ritualization, traditions, and superstition, a vampire's influence grows.  People's fear itself bolsters the existence of the vampire.  Yet that brings forth the weakness of such creature: ritualization of religion, which is the chief enemy and competitor for such influence of fear over the people.  Thus such superstition as weakness to holy water, sunlight, wooden weapons, the cross, etc. appear.  The fact that the people's own imagination and control of fear could work against vampires keep them secretive and underground away from public's eyes.

But is such a vampire, one who purely drinks blood for sustenence and for existence, a true immortal?  Such a vampire will surely die if one or the other (sustenence or existence) fails to support its life.  Therefore, it is merely prolonging its life and existence through acquiring of additional organism's existence.

And so, we make a distinction between vampires, and call the ones that don't need blood for sustenence and existence as the True Race, and regular vampires.  While regular vampires became one either through human means(experimentation, through genes), or by getting bitten from other vampires, and absolutely require blood in order to remain existing, the True Race do not appear by either means nor do they necessarily need blood.  ... more to follow (I've had a cold for a few days now, thank you very much, and I've got finals to worry about... why am I still here?)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2004, 09:31:46 PM by GandalfTheOld » Logged

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« Reply #82 on: May 06, 2004, 07:05:53 PM »

Sorry for the interruption, but an announcement:
BEHOLD, THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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koc name:Maaya
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« Reply #83 on: October 23, 2005, 06:49:22 AM »

This community really likes cheese..
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