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You're an expert coder, capable of turning any concept into script.
Annoyed with the bad coding in Kings of Chaos you intend to create a similar game, with the intention of removing cheating, link-spamming and general discontent.

Tell me what you would create.

Graphics >.<

I've told you trillions of times im on board for this, do I have to tell you again.

I know you're willing to help, but without a general structure there is nothing to help with, and if I go off and create the structure without input then I would be able to count the number of players I'd get on one finger, hence asking a selection of the target market what they want. :)

Graphics are a good idea though, but makes everything slower... depends how things work out as to how big a part they play.

::Some Specific Things::
1. More weapons, more things to do with money.

2. More sense to some of the key mathmatical rules. eg. why does an army of 200 with a shit attack/defence tend to kill about 50 men of an army of 1000??  just cos they are attacking someone much higher than them they shouldnt kill a lot of men, they should get slaughtered completely and utterly ffs!

3. Only one weapon per man.  (eg. make it much better to spend ur money, especially near start) plus of course u should include stuff like pillaging enemy's weapons if u win a battle, and losing weapons if u lose men.

:::Some Unspecific Things::
4.  Umm...its hard to explain, but there should be something built into the game that incorporates alliances/clans/guilds.  (whatever u want to call them) sort of like a team thingy.  i dunno exactly how it would work, maybe an invite and accept thingy, but however u did it there should be the ability to send messages to these people who have "accepted" and u would not...and i mean would not! be able to attack them, unless u left the group.  i guess there would also have to be leaders, otherwise people u invite would just keep inviting, so on and so forth.  so if leader leaves maybe he could have option of passing leadership on or closing whole group.

anywho...i can't think of other stuff right now, but i'm sure i will.
that's just my thoughts...

Yup, more weapons is an obvious one.
Mathematical rules will definitely make more sense.
One weapon per man? Maybe. Or maybe the option to have one large melee, two small melee, and/or a ranged weapon might be better? This is one thing I need to spend time thinking about... how complex to make it?
Alliances/guilds are a definite feature. Currently I'm thinking that each person joins a certain nation, which will define their alliance, however when their army is big enough they can break away from that nation and become a seperate clan or something. Not sure how joining/leaving would work.

These are the kind of suggestions I want, thanks. :thumbs-up:

Just a few suggestions...I have no idea how one would go about implementing them or if they are feasable.

The whole co-operative / alliance thing is a good idea. Again not sure how that would work. Maybe be able to temporarily join together to form armies to achieve communal objectives or for communal defence.

Spies should be able to do more than just find out info. Maybe anonomously steal gold / steal weapons / kill a soldier or two. Though limit the number of availible non-info missions they can do per day.

It would be an idea to have different modes for attack. Eg
Set out to steal as much money as possible.
Set out to kill as many men as possible.
Set out to take as many weapons as possible.

& Consequently different modes for defence. (With different bonuses and effects)
Run at the first sign of trouble. (eg casualties halved but so is defence)
Hold your ground.
Fight till you die. (eg casualties doubled but so is defence)

More possible bonuses at the start. Ie. Not just one trait per race.

Random events.

Maybe the option of being able to send a message (chosen from pre-set selection) to the person you are attacking.
Eg. (Just farming, Stop farming me etc...)

If you recruit attacking mercs,  they cost very little to hire, they have their own weapons but take a fairly hefty % of the winnings of every attack they win. And leave if they dont get that much money, or have lost quite a few recent battles.

These are just a few suggestions I have. I hope you can find something in there worth while.

That attack/defense modes is an awesome idea! :D

Spies being able to do thief/assasin quests is something I do want to include, and a limit would have to be set on this... or perhaps just make it harder with each attempt, so that eventually there is a 99% chance of getting caught?
Also something I want, if the spy is spotted, the victim is notified.

Random events is a good idea, things like natural disasters, disease, etc?
Oooh, perhaps you could have spies poison water supplies of enemies?

Sending messages... that's a difficult one, as there are bad sides... perhaps having to use a man as a messenger for one turn would be a better option?

Start bonuses, I guess that could depend on the nation you choose, as well as which race. Also there would probably be different races... certainly more variety.

Mercs, I'm not sure about them...depends how the combat system works as to if they are a good idea.



Good ideas. :thumbs-up:

oo SS r u thinking about doing this stuff?

Heh, most amusing you asked this, because about 5 months ago I started making my own, till I f****d up MySql and I formatted my harddrive... because I was upset :.  I had planned on starting again with a few school friends who play it, I currently have php 4.0.13 I think and apache 2, mysql latest on my comp running for............................   My Trillian profile LOL. :)

A 205mb waste of ram basically but oh well,  theres a multitude of things I would love to do ;), have a list around here somewhere back from a while ago when I was trying to make my own :).  

less reliance on the click system...this can be avoided by more of a focus on tactics, which in turn will mean much more open ended gameplay, more variations on setups...

here is a general plan, ripped from Internet sources with modifications of my own, and thought up myself

...though i beg you not to read this with any preconcieved notions...take it as a new game

---general idea---

the basic idea of the game is twofold, you must build up a strong army and raise a kingdom. Raising a kingdom will mean building certain structures on a designated area of "land". These structures will raise the limits of what is allowed for the army. Homes will provide a higher maximum troop limitation...Hospitals will lessen the casualties suffered in combat...Outposts will boost defense and security a certain percentage

as you can see, homes raise the maximum ammount of troops per area of "land" so having a strong army is dependent on the balance of structures that are built within the land...if a player were to build all homes and amass a huge army, then thieves will simply walk in and assasinate everyone...or a small but highly efficient army will slaughter it...its all about balance...

of course a kingdom with no structures will have an extremely low troop limit, be highly inefficient and incapable at just about everything, and will get beaten down extremely quickly

but all of these structures are to be built on "land" this land must be gained from opposing forces by combat, of course the defenders will have an equal, or perhaps better chance of defending the land that they worked hard to build up, its not like KOC when you can pick a random target, attack blindly and will almost certainly win. When starting a new game, players are given an area of land to build and start on.

new areas of land may periodicly open up for use to allow expanding of kingdoms...i'm not sure how this will be incorporated as if the need to gain land through combat is compromised...then it will create sterile gameplay...but constantly more land is a must because of continuing growth and with any luck, extra players

---money and link clicking---

you may have noticed i've not included any reference to link clicking...

well, new buildings don't simply pop up off the ground, they need resources to be built, these resources may be gathered from clicks on a unique link much like in KOC

a certain amount of these resources (most likely to be called Gold) could also be produced on a per-turn basis...its up to you really, although i like to emphasis strategy rather than sheer volumne of popularity...

---combat---

i was discussing to Auron how there aren't any tactical combat games, games focused on clever use of a small team such as in Pokemon...just less...sad, it seems unlikely a small group should occupy an entire kingdom, which got me thinking, and i came up with this combat system...its complicated but it should be a blast to play:

Each side has created at the start a set of heroes (maybe 10), a certain ammount of money and land is needed to activate a hero, so a small, new kingdom will have less heros than older, more badass kingdoms

Now, these heros each have a set of skills that the hero can use, they should fit what type of a hero it is, fighter mage or thief...a Knight may have "charge", "cleave" etc etc.

now, the troops will be assigned to the hero, so the effects of a skill used will be magnified...
say a hero with 1000 men is assigned to him, he then uses "cleave" on a defending army, he would cause much more damage to the defending army than a hero with 600 men assigned to him...and thus would be more likely to win...all the troops are is a multiplier for the hero's attacks...nothing more

the obvious choice would be to pile all of your army onto one hero and get him to whack the enemy damn hard...well that'd be great...but strategy should also be avaliable to those who seek them

for example, you may assign 1000 men to a Knight hero and use cleave, hitting the defenders hard

when an attack is initiated, you should be able to use all the heros who have men assigned to them in a predesignated order

assign 300 men to a Wizard (maybe an Illusionist) hero, 700 men to a Theif (such as Assasin) hero, cast "blind" on the defending army using the wizard (this could do something like, multiply effect of thief movements)...then "assasinate" the enemy using the thief...

of course, if "blind" was defended...your assasins will go in fully seen...and be completely mauled over by the defense, this means that there are very great gains to be made by a combo, but if it fails...the effects could be very bad for your health... :ph34r:

this would create devastating effects, superior to if you had just whacked them hard...of course you will need to have chosen the right heros at the start, place men correctly on the heros, and have gotten large enough to unlock these heros

this would give combat a more varied approach, not just about who has bigger armies or better equiped/augmented armies...also, as gamers play for longer, it will get more interesting, not more boring...as more heros are unlocked...and thus more combos become avaliable...i believe this approach is unique...something rarely heard on the internet

---defending---

this is easy, plain and simple troop defense...no heros, nothing...move a portion of your troops to defense, more troops to attack may augment your Hero's abilities but will leave you vunerable on defense...and vice versa

jlw2's idea of defense, hold the ground, run away, fight till the death...is also good...it'll balance out a little all the badass combos people will be laying down on you...

also, the defense strength will be augmented by the structures you have, such as fortresses, outposts etc.

the amount of outposts and men on defense you have will also determine your resistance to thief encounters, and thus assasins and spies...


there ya go...thats my idea of a perfect game, if you could use a few ideas from there, i'd be delighted...but i understand if you have to strip it down to save time...tell me if theres any questions i've missed, glaring errors that i made...

At first I wasn't so keen about this hero and combo thing. I was thinking more in terms of divisions (archers, cavalry, foot soldiers etc....) and lots of different tactics with each of them... Then I realised that its basically the same. Just replacing division with hero and tactic with combo. The good thing about everous's idea is that (although very reminiscent of the HOMM series), it seems quite unique for an online game (I think). An important fact if and when this is actually made. As unless it is pay-per-play, advertisers will be needed. A unique sounding game may draw more interest.

I have a good suggestion.  Perhaps along with Everous' idea (which sounds like a really good strategy game already) you might add POW's into the game.  when you attack, you might have certain units trained to capture high ranking officers (or perhaps even heroes) of the opposing army.  These POW's might be traded for more money or territoey from the opponent, depending on negotiations between the two players.  If negotiations fail, then the captured person may be tortured into giving out information on the opponents army, land, or locations of various buildings.  Also, the opponent might send in a part of his army to try to recover the POW(s) in question.

those are all realy good ideas, but somewhere along the line you have to consider the fact that there is only so much bandwith avalible, and if you get a lot of people playing (it sounds like it could be very cool), well look at KoC they have no animations, in this there will be a whole world, thats interconnected. although a very cool idea it will probably have to be made so that the animations run not from the server but from a download previous to play, and then all the server has to do is tell your comp whats happening where, instead of sending all the animations as well, although that is way over my expertise  ;) which is very very small in software. oh well, i am trying to learn though, call me a beta geek trying to advance :hehe:  :D  LOL  

All that I read so far kicks ass!  One thing I would love to see is with the accounts them selfs having real profiles and the fact that you can at any point change your officers? Leaders? Commandars?  when you go to join an alliance you can really be on the alliance and under the alliance members in any way the alliance owners want you to be place so on.  I mean I my self started this game as a officer under someone I can care less of and such it would be nice if i could move "mecta" to someone else or by him self.

--Mecta

Building on the one weapon/soldier thing here:

Say you have 100 soldiers, and a selection of weapons (Say... 60 Short swords, 80 Spears, 60 Longbows)

Every (10? 20?) soldiers are organised into a unit, and each unit may be armed differantly - For example, Unit 1 and 2 have Spears, Unit 3 has Longbows etc.

This A, makes weapons easier to control, as theres little point in buying 10000 knives for 50 men.
B, Means that there IS a point to buying additional weapons... as you can re-equip units to give them differant effectiveness in combat.

Maybe a system for equipment resale?

[Getting_really_ambitious]Maybe a system for production of weapons and equipment? Based on having territory with a mine, a forest etc and developing it?

I totally realise that there is a need for a map screen to implement this... such things make games like this better :)

Everous, some good ideas... I was considering doing "land", but I couldn't think of a good way to handle it... your method for it is certainly worth thinking about.

The hero thing could work in a similar way to jlwd2's methods I think, especially as I didn't want to over-complicate things with magic (too much variety/too much work), but I think it would still be possible to have the combo's using this method, and perhaps having explosive weapons which could do things such as blind would work without being too complex.

jlwd2, advertising. I intend to do my best to make sure this is not needed, and a worst case scenario is banner adverts. Hopefully my current 20GB/month bandwidth will be enough, but if not then hopefully I can find a decent sponsor who has plain, simple friendly advertising. If advertising is needed then I will offer a cheap "premium" account which will remove adverts for perhaps €10 a year or something.

matt, capturing prisoners is an interesting idea... though perhaps this could be a unique feature of one/some of the races/nations, instead of casualties. Definitely worth more consideration.

Biteme, I think you misunderstand what Auron meant by graphics, there will not be any animations, unless they are needed. Also, it is possible to have nice looking, yet small filesize images, if you know how to optimize things correctly, which I hopefully do.

Mecta, yes, the alliance system will hopefully be made so you can join/leave easily, and are not stuck on the same side as the person you signed up from, infact I intend to have it so that you can declare war on the person who referred you, which should make people more careful with who they supply their link to.

Again, thanks to everyone for all the great ideas, if you have any more comments, keep them coming. :cool:

Next thing off the top of my head:

Anyone played Kessen?


No? Well, in Kessen you control and army that moves around and... etc etc, I'll get to the point.

In Kessen, you have a variety of Officers (This ties to the Heroes thing), each of which has a number of special abilities (This is the idea) Like charge, which makes you inflict more casualties, and volley which deals more damage from archer units.


I'll shut up now >.<
 

well, considering me and jlwd2's ideas are almost identical, they're just presented very differently...


oh and the magic, i don't understand how it would be more complicated that doing something like explosives...my idea is that the magic effect lasts for the duration of the attack, so that another can take advantage of it....if they don't, then the effect is wasted

one thing i did notice was different to jlwd2's idea was that his "divisions" are premade, whereas heros could be picked when registering an account...this would give greater variety and bring out more playing styles...and therefore...add to tactics
 

Bah, your post didn't appear when I replied earlier.

I think that if the weapons used were linked to the combat 'stances' (eg: you cannot charge particularly well with a bow) with certain weapons being strong at certain things... two handed weapons good for charging, polearms good against charges, ranged good against polearms, etc.

Selling the weapons back at eg: 70% of the value is also a good idea.

Territory types would work well if there was a map/lands like Everous suggested, but yeah this would be complex... if there was someone a way to automate this side of things unless people wanted to control it, like in Civ, you can get the computer to manage cities/workers/etc while you concentrate on attacking/exploring/etc. That'd be even more work to code, but better for the user.

maps are interesting...but where its been implemented before...i haven't seen the need for a map, land is just another statistic on the side of the screen...another vital resource that the player must collect...

oh yeah another thing...promise when you set up a forum for future suggestions...you actually listen to the players' comments

I think the best thing would be to give the user a choice at the beginning, which allowed them a certain set of premade stances... this could be linked with the territory goods (eg: need nearby saltpeter for explosives).

The reason magic would be more complex is because it can [in theory] do anything, and there would be a large percentage of people who wanted spell-X or incantation-Y to be added, and me being me would want to try add them whilst keeping it balanced.
Hmmm, perhaps it would be worth having one of the races (elves?) who can perform some magic, without having actual wizards/mages, which would be better?

On the subject of races, I don't particularly want to use the four KoC ones, I want more, and more interesting things. And I don't want to enforce an alignment on someone because of their racial choice... so I don't want to be including Orcs/Trollocs/etc.
Currently I'm thinking:
Humans: Default class, no specialisation, above average at everthing.
Elves: Specialised in archery and magic, good at spying.
Ogiers: Large and strong, good at charging. Can use two large weapons.
[Something]: Good at defending, specialised in polearms, can use phalanx tactic.
Goblins: Good at spying, able to ambush tactic, unable to use large weapons.

Except I'd prefer to use unique names as well, just to be more original (and avoid any potential copyright issues), and I want more than that... I'd prefer six or eight things.

This will be the most important thing, because I've been on the other side of it far too often, and I know how annoying having faceless management is.
I will definitely try to reply to every comment and then test the suggestion before deciding whether it would be worth implementing or not, and letting the players know either way.

As for maps, it would be nice if they could be included, but I only want them if they are going to contribute something... perhaps having some sort of system of positioning and moving your army, so you could maybe split it and flank enemies... might be difficult to code but if it can be done it would be cool. :)

As I said, which ties to making weapon etc, differant zones could have differant things, like A Iron mine, or a city where you can hire mercenaries.

I love these ideas, but sadly, I cannot think of any. o.o

Yes. On the subject of weapon making... I know next to nothing about that.
Bows need wood (Yew?) and string (horse hair?)
Axes need wood(Oak?) and metal (Iron?)
Swords need metal (Iron/Steel?)

That is pretty much the extent of my knowledge... is it worth having 'real' resources, or just keeping things simple with wood/metal/whatever?
If proper resources, then what are the correct types for weapons... and should you be able to build weapons with other types of that resource, but they would not be as strong/efficient weapons?

[moved to better forum]

I think having better quality weapons with better quality resources would work...

If you want, I can come up with a list of weapons and what it would take to make them *Shrugs* I have lots of free time this week.

If you've got nothing better to do, go ahead. :)

Ok, I'll see what I come up with.

all ur ideas are really awesome but u guys write to much <_<    It's hard to read it all :o  

ah, so you're definately going with the battalion idea instead of the heros?...and if there going to be sets of premade stances...there will be no difference at all in the two approaches

on other thing...are you going to take up the suggestion of "unlocking" more battalions as time goes on?...the game could calculate your networth...and unlock more battalions as it grows higher...

Ok, This is what I propose for the resources system:

Resources associated with Weaponsmithing, Armour smithing, Bow Making, fletching etc:

Food (Used for upkeep, drafting and training, all sorts)
Oak (Tough wood, used for Spear hafts etc)
Yew (Bendable wood, used for bows etc)
Iron (Used for Swords, Spear blades, Axes blades etc May be Smelted into Steel with correct facilities)
Gold (Used to pay Weaponsmiths etc to construct goods)
Steel (Used in the place of Iron, Steel weapons are superior. Some weapons may only be built with steel)
Sinew* (Used for bowstrings etc, taken from Animals hunted for food)
Leather (For light armour, and also used in heavier armour, taken from Cow hide. May be Tanned with the correct facilities to create Tanned Leather which is superior.)

*Not sure about this - it seems like it might be a bit too easy to get.


Weapons would require something like this: *All numbers are 'Units' of the resource*

Lance: Mounted only, 2 Oak, 1 Steel
Pike: 3 Oak, 1 Steel
Spear: 2 Oak, 1 Iron (Or Steel, to create a Superior weapon)
Axe: 1 Oak, 2 Iron (Or Steel, to create a Superior weapon)
Longsword: 2 Iron (Or Steel, to create a Superior weapon)
Shortsword: 1 Iron (Or Steel, to create a Superior weapon)
Greatsword: 3 Iron (Or Steel, to create a Superior weapon)
Longbow: 2 Yew, 1 Sinew
Shortbow: 1 Yew, 1 Sinew
Crossbow: 1 Yew, 1 Iron, 1 Sinew (Or Steel, to create a Superior weapon)

Armour:

Leather: 2 Leather (Or Tanned Leather, to make a superior item)
Studded Leather: 2 Leather, 1 Iron (Or Tanned Leather, Steel, to make a superior item)
Chain Shirt: 3 Iron (Or Steel, to create a Superior item)
Full Chain: 5 Iron (Or Steel, to create a Superior item)
Platemail: 7 Iron (Or Steel, to create a Superior item)
Field Plate: 10 Steel

Gold cost would vary form item to item... but I need to know more about the main game mechanics before I can put a monetary value on any of this. Of course, all values above are in-progress.

Trade system?

A trade system would be good... so that those who cant manufacture Steel can trade for it for truly extortionate prices... making  sure that producing your own equipment is cheaper in the long run, while taking time to produce what you need and taking territories with the necessary resources, you can buy those 10,000 spears you need to face down the Cavalry army thats charging at you at very short notice.

Oh yeah, Horses... hmph, that requires more thought.

I would like to thank SS for giving me something to do on this extremely lazy Tuesday Afternoon...

I say, have yourself as the main general and the only part of your army that never chages (Other than improving with experience?) generate stats for him when the game starts, and give you 1 square of territory and x number of untrained men.

You can train your men, draft new men, build buildings, develop land, construct equipment, trade for equipment or gold, invade your neighbours for land and pillage, etc etc - Lots of stuff, making it pretty complex.

For combat you select armaments, unit commanders, and unit tactics - Similar to the Batallions idea I believe.

Im just shooting off ideas here...  

Nothing is definite at the moment, but my current view is that batallions/stances would be better.
The unlocking idea could work if it was based around your power/skill... for example: spies could assasinate a random victim at lower levels, but at higher levels they can target a specific type of enemy (archer/swordsman). Or perhaps another way is just to limit the number of batallions dependant on size, so a small army only has one ability, medium has three, large has five, etc.

:D

wow Auron ur whole weapons thing is awesome! it just sounds soooo cool.  Did u have this stuff already in ur head or did u just start thinking about it today?  Yeah you deffinatly have to tie in horses somewhere.  i think there should be an option for ur charecter to be a farmer and u can get sheep and stuff :)

When the player first starts I want to keep things very simple, so that they don't get lost. With Neveron I gave up because I couldn't be bothered figuring out what was what.
However, the player also needs to know that they can do complex stuff in the near future, so that they continue to play, and that the longer they play the more power (both ingame power and game options) they will get.

Hmmm... this is going to be a fighting game, not a 'living' game... it would be nice to have a real persistant world where you can choose any occupation, but I think if that's going to happen it should be a seperate later project after/if this one is successful.

o well wut ever but sheep will rule the world one day :sheep:  :sheep:  :sheep:  :sheep:  :sheep:  :sheep: (they r already ruling my post LOL)

Yep... thats the idea behind being able to build things and having a teritories system - At the start its fairly easy with your poorly trained militia  raiding a few computer-controlled farms, but eventually you'll be controlling massive units of well-trained Knights in gleaming full plate with lances (Oooooooh, Lances... thats a point :/), duking it with the big guys.

its also why unlocking battalions is a good idea...later on you'd know how to use all the badass combos avaliable better...whereas at the start the focus should be getting your kingdom on its feet...

you dont have too...

well i think cities would be cool, you have your own city, but you could also get in an other city (if the other likes it) and so make an alliance city or sumthing, it could also fall, if charged by lots of people. you could also say that units on defence duty ar in the city and offence duty ar out in the field, on their way to other cities, these units could also get tired/homesick or sumthing, this could also be different for each race

Just a thought. If you are going with the map idea, only squares have been suggested so far. I suggest hexagons.

Both tile well. Hexagons have 6 borders (so more opportunity to attack/be attacked) whilst squares have only 4.

Hexagons look better (though would be much harder to code.)


Edit:
Yup, I understand. Was just putting it forward b4 someone else did.

Hex's are cool but:

a, Makes the game harder
b, Make the code harder
c, Makes the map design harder.

See my point?

I have no prob with paying something like 2 dollars a month for a small kick ass web base game like you are making as long as it's better then koc and belive me if you do these ideals it would be!  Also it would be great if you can set up a pay by money order?  I do not plan to ever get a credit card, pay pal, banck account, or anything like that and would only be able to pay with money order.  Also ads would be ok just dun even think about pop ups most of use use better browsers then ie anyways.

I'm sure right now your mind is not so on the ads/pay thing just wanted to point out to be differ then 99% of the gaming word and use money orders ...  hehe thanks for taking in all our comments!

--Idoxash

Map areas: I'm currently thinking diamonds (but in the style of Civ where they are actually octogens) and without it being too obvious (ie: no grid lines or distinct borders)

Paying: I've no idea what money orders are, let alone how I would handle them, but if you give me some more info I will definitely investigate it.

Fortifications would require the following to construct:

Stone (Quarried. Used to make Larger, more robust structures and walls)
Oak (Used to make smaller structures, and on the insides of larger structures)
Gold (To hire stonemasons etc)

Example Structures:

Keeps

Motte (I think its the Motte... might be the Bailey, anyway): 300 Oak
Stockade: 500 Oak
Bastion: 700 Oak, 100 Stone
Fortress: 1000 Stone, 500 Oak
Stronghold: 1500 Stone, 1000 Oak

As you can see, defences are VERY expensive... but they should be worth it.

Walls

Palisade: 50 Oak
Full Wooden Wall: 150 Oak
Stone Wall: 300 Stone
Ring and Curtain Wall: 700 Stone

Again, these are rough figures, and working names in some cases...

Yeah guess you are from the UK and that would not even work over there at all!  US money orders is like a check.  Instead of sending a personel check you send a check that is made just for mail orders you could say.  Also unlike personel check if a morder is lost, stolen it is cover.  Guess i'm stuck with the ad part of the game if you use ads anyways.

--Mecta

A Postal Order?

Hmmm, Will we have Food as a resource?

Every soldier uses food, food is obtained by hunting (Sinew is also produced, though at a lower rate than food) and by farming.

This would make the game harder, but also give another element of tactics, as im assuming when you invade someone you take a little of their resources and the Territory you invaded.

I think food would be a good thing, it would stop people from being densely packed, because each Area would produce enough food to feed upto X soldiers, so if you have 3X soldiers you either need to hold three Areas, or your army will start to weaken when the food runs out.

Ok *Adds food to list of resources in head*

ahh yes that is the other name of them :)  just around here you sometimes call them money orders or postal orders that you can get from the postal office.

haha the funny thing is if you people keep up you should just call in Age of Empires cause in a way that what this looks like becoming or at least a game related to it that is base on web code...  Kewl either way :)


--Mecta

Heh cool, because I know vaguely what a postal order is... except I don't really, but I've got the Barclays website open, so I shall find out soon what it is and if it is possible to do internationally. :)

Couldn't find anything on Barclays site, the Post Office site mentioned it, but it appeared to be non-international.
However the PO also mentioned MoneyGram, which is international.
Go here (http://www.moneygram.com/servlet/DefaultApplyXSL?xslURL=/Display/temgweb.xsl&URL=/Document/p3_1__MoneyGram.xml) for more details.
Looking at the Post Office site it appears there is a £12 (~$18) charge for all payments under £100 (~$150) though, which would possibly not make it a viable method, though it is possible this is just the PO prices and it wouldn't cost that much in the US.

eeeh no comment or sumthing, cause i think it would be extremely cool if all of this would happen, but isn't this game gonna be a bit too hard, and too easy to screw up? you said yourself that Utopia was to complicated SS, and this is gonna be quite hard too (as it sounds right now) and if you play it you should not have to look at your account every day if you don't wanna screw it up, but if you want to you should be able to play it every day without it getting boring or that you cant do anything anymore, it think that's one of the hardest things but also one of the most important if you want this to become a popular game

Okay, so all the ideas above are very nice, but we're still missing something rather important: The Name.

I mean how am I supposed to create a folder to store stuff in without at least a working project title? :rolleyes:

The name is important though, it needs to be something which will grab people... if it was called FabulousFightyFighters it aint going to invoke a feeling of interest and curiosity in people. The name needs to be something simple but powerful.
The simplicity can be achieved by allowing it to have an abbreviation which sounds good. I wont bother with examples, I'm sure it is obvious enough what I mean?
Obviously it needs to be themed also, the setting being a pseudo-medieval/fantasy world, with a strong emphasis on fighting, nations/alliances and managing your army. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any original descriptive phrases for this, but it doesn't have to be anything like Kings of Chaos, Soldier of Fortune, Rise of Nations etc. It can be a unique name, perhaps the name of the lands which the game will take place in... I'm currently looking at Filran (:ph34r:), but anyone with good name ideas, feel free to comment. :)

Yep, making a game is easy. Making one which requires very little interaction but provides plenty of depth if wanted is the hardest part, and also one of the key elements which will determine it's popularity.
Hopefully though I will have lots of willing beta testers to make sure it is playable with whatever level of attention you want to give it.

One thing which I feel will be vital is that there  is no clear indication of how much wealth a player has, only vague suggestions. To get a more exact figure you would need to spy on that player. This should help to prevent problems like the money-caps which seem to occur in KoC every so often, where no-one on the page has more than 30k gold.

Personally Id like to see it kept simple and basic. Yet with enough variation to keep it from becoming mundane. And keep game balance with some realism. One of the things that annoys me more then anything is the fact that an army a 5th the size of mine can make me thier farm. And lose 0 soliders and I can lose several. Now how realistic is that?  Ive read some great ideas here and I know Id be there.  But above all! There has to be admins and people willing to keep it running. Not build something and let it fall to pieces. Thats my simple game wishlist.

If coded correctly, persistant worlds require no external input other than the players.
That's not to say there should be no admins/etc, but that they are only needed for GM-style events, for example creating a unique quest.

The attack equations will be coded properly... I'm currently thinking of being able to attack any army bigger than you, but nothing more than a third your size unless they have attacked you first.. but that is definitely open to variation.

(See post just above for other points)

i'd like to test it! :D
well and mayb if the spies are so important u should  be able to choose if you want a spy to stay with the other army/warlord/whatever, so that you wouldn't have to send a spy every time you want information, but if you look at a profile of an army where you have a spy walking around, just 'ask the spy to report' or something, so you could see it right away (this spy should be able to be found by the other player at some time, but that might be complicated)...(or this isn't necessary)

You mean an Informant... that would be a good idea for a feature that got unlocked at a higher level, yes. :thumbs-up:
You could receive reports once per day which would have a % chance of being discovered, and if so fake reports could be sent, and you would have a % chance of detecting the fake reports, perhaps? :D

that would be extremely cool, could become a very addicting game, the downfall of the western society perhaps   :o :blink: :o

SS - I have some working equations, which fit in to some stuff I've been working on all evening  :ph34r:

Please get on IRC... or I'll post my notes here... and you'll lose prospective players into a few pages of working and reworking before you can say ARGH!.

 

Ok, going on IRC now.

(postal money orders)

The best way to do such stuff would be to open up an account in the US so in other words forget the ideal it would seem to be to complex and far to much work for a game.  Thanks for at least looking into it thoe.

--Idoxash

Siege Engines:

The following would require a Siege Engineers Workshop to construct:

Battering Ram: 15 Oak, 5 Iron (Or Steel) - Close ranged weapon for knocking in gates, powerful, but slow and very short ranged.
Balista: 20 Oak, 5 Iron, 10 Sinew(Or Steel) - Mid ranged weapon that resembles a crossbow, fires bolts the size of Spears.
Mangonel: 30 Oak, 3 Steel, 25 Sinew - Long ranged catapult for destroying walls.
Trebuchet: 100 Oak, 5 Steel, 50 Sinew - Extreme ranged catapult, very powerful.

Blackpowder (Research): Large amount of gold. - Allows construction of a Cannon Foundry.

The following would require a Cannon Foundry.

Demi-Culverin: 50 Steel, 10 Oak - Mid ranged cannon. Very powerful. Causes fear?
Culverin: 100 Steel, 20 Oak - Long ranged cannon, Extreme power. Causes fear.

Once more... all costs are Work-in-progress...

After working an online game for years I know all to well how growth effects a game so would be very important to allow for expansion.  Are you in mind to building a MUD or a click based game?  The ideas are awesome but for a click based?  A one page game or multi page? Or worlds?

Depends on your definition of MUD. It will have multiple users in the same domain, but will be turn based and controlled via a browser.
Expansion will be simple... infact if I write a equation to generate land, it would be even easier... depends how the maps work if that is possible, but eitherway the hardest expansion will just be adding an extra row to the database.
To keep things simple enough, yet have plenty of features, there will probably have to be multiple pages, but not more than a dozen or two.

Oh, SS - need to talk to you about teh combat system.

Making it map based is an idea me and Ev have been bouncing off each other, but I need to get some bouncy-action with you :P

Looks like the name is going to be Fate of Nations, unless anyone has any better ideas?

Sounds interesting Im intriqued..Can always use a new addiction. I hope not to much graphics though. Takes pages to long to load and if dont have a server to handle massive users it will surely bog allot and I personally hate that. I tend to turn off graphics. I gots a good imagination dont need em! Seen em once dont need to see again. My only knowledge is customer care area and only programming I know is that wee bit Im taught to maintain my areas.

There will be few enough graphics that the site will run smoothly, but enough to give it atmosphere and make not have the user think they are using Lynx.

Do I get to be a Mod in it?
And it must have a short Chinese man sitting on the corner selling pancakes in it.

No.


-


I'm doing a Races list... basically the different skills and weaknesses of the races.
So, no-one else do anything until I've posted what I've got on here. :P

Can I playtest?

Hey SS, email me your races and I'll get to work on the Battle / Character / Batallion system tonight...

Ripper, No.

Auron, Still a WIP, not sure if I'll have it completed to my satisfaction tonight, but if I've got anywhere by 9pm I'll e-mail you.

Hmmm, Okay. I can still work on the system - Races will just change number of Points to Allocate, skills, what skills, starting atributes etc etc.

Why cant i playtest?
If i come up with a good idea can i playtest?

If you post something useful instead of spamming the thread then you will be considered for playtesting like everyone else who has submitted useful posts. :P

Seeker, if you need names for additional races, or locations, tell me. (My internet is down, so I have to post at school! :() And... when its ready, could I playtest because I'm a great guy with too much time on my hands? ^^

Yes, you probably can... but can we at least get the concept somewhere less vague and have some code actually produced before everyone starts asking to playtest. :P
As for names, yes, I would like some interesting things. Locations might be useful also, depends how things work.

Kobolds/ Lizard men would be cool, along with the usual (dwarves, orcs, humans, elves).

And i think you should be able to buy buildings for ur city, blacksmith, stables, etc, which would effect the items you can make, and ur income/outcome (via shops)

hit me up when you're ready for me to start coding... anything.   :ph34r:  

Ripper:
No dwarves or orcs, because... well, because I said so. :P

What are Kobolds/ Lizard men traditionally adept/inept at?

The building idea is already fairly well settled.

diskreet:
Will do, but it probably wont be for a while yet, depends how long before the key elements are made firm.

Kobolds are sneaky little bastards, but they arent too bright.

I'll start drawing up a system for character creation in ooooh... 15 minutes...

Right, a summary of what I've worked out race-wise.

There will be 10-12 Official nations at the start, distributed like this:
8-10 Human Nations
2-3 Elf Nations
1 [Ogier-style creature] Nation
1 [Goblin-style creature] Nation

The Elves and [Ogiers] will be at peace with each other, and a couple of the Humans
The Human nations will be at either peace, neutral or war with each other.
The Elves dislike [Goblins] but they are not a big enough pest to go to war with.
The Humans/[Ogiers] mostly ignore the [Goblins] also, and might not have even had contact.

As for benefits, the different human & elf nations will have slightly different bonuses, but will not be too different.

Race wise:
Humans: Nothing special about them, they are average or just above in all skills. (except ones which are improved because of their nation bonuses)
Elves: Typical elves, good archers, good at spying, relatively intellignet.
[Ogiers]: Big strong craetures, which are good at building things and relatively intelligent, though not very fast/agile (but not clumsy).
[Goblins]: Small agile creatures, at least as smart as any human, but never smarter than an elf/[ogier]. Good at spying and no disadvantages for moving over awkward land.

There is a bit more than that which I have got, but I could spend all evening writing up my ideas, and I've got other things to do for a while, so I'll post this now.

Join IRC as soon as you can.

Ok, just coming

... wots this game based on?

Theres always your traditional Trolls, Boars, and Wights. Always liked the wights..they are very mystical and stealthy and downright ugly, Kobs just plain stupid and easy to kill. (typicaly) But why not make up creatures? Instead of going to the old already used? Sounds like plenty of imagination here..I know I can think of several. But am still not grasping the direction your wanting to go. Ive done some game design both creature, room and battle/magic use. Althought mine has all been text based gaming. Hmm maybe Im just spamming this good thread..dont mean to be. Just interested in what yer doin.  

Making up, Imagination, great ideas!

Now, where did I stick my brain? :blink:  

/me points at toilet

/ me flushes toilet :blink:  

ARGH! GIVE ME BACK MY MIND!

/me runs downstairs and yanks drain cover off then jumps into sewers.


here brainy-brainy-brainy! come to daddy! where are you brain?

then SS is attacked by giant man eating sewer rats

Pffft, easy!

/me holds hands in air and goes to cast lightning strike at rats.

*fails intelligence check*

Bugger.

/me takes out shock rifle. Shoots.

Fried rats anyone?

*goes and picks up brain, then replaces in head and secures firmly*

Sephiroth-> :balefire::asha'man: <-SS


-


Now, back on topic... Auron, when you read this, we need to discuss and possibly re-think the battle map idea... I can be on IRC from around 5pm tomorrow?

/me falls off chair with laughter

injust finished some axe sketches

:o OMG I ignore this topic for a day or 2 and it already has 7 pages and they arn't spammy(yet LOL)  WOW this has got to b sum sort of record ;)  

Oh, that doesnt bode.

What have you done now?!

We've spotted a rather large potential flaw, because unless you've missed out something when explaining it, there is the need to write complex AI for the defensive player.

Not necessarily complex, but yeah...

They would have to be complex to make them realistic and uncrackable. :mellow:  

I suppose... well, to cut down the use of the AI, we could use a version of the Battleplayers system from Neveron, which allows you to set your empire so that your Alliance mates can take control of your units if you're invaded...

Gnghghgh... getting very complex. :mellow:

*Shrugs*

Its either a map-based system or auto-resolution. With auto-resolution were talking about moving back towards KoC's level of skill.... You'll be coding it, its your call.

Hmmm, well I can always look at doing AI stuff, but it depends how good I am at it. I didn't do particularly well in my PAINN module last year. :mellow:

I think for the moment if we just look at doing auto-resolution, we can always sub in a map system at a later date... assumine we code things properly (modular) which I will ensure is done. :)

Hmmm :/

So... we're talking using abilities when you decide to fight?

IE: You click on the attack empire button, and get taken to a strategy screen?

Either your not making sense, or my head is broken. :miffed:

i reckon u fished the rong thing outta the drain

Your head is broken.

Instead of using a map, which is hard, or just instantly generating attack results, which is crap, we go half way.

When you attack an enemy zone, you get taken to a screen where you designate tactics for each of your units, then submit the tactics and it generates the battle.

good idea. but hey, remember, we cant make it too complicated. the reason that KOC was fun for all ages was that it was simple enough for younger people to grasp but still had strategy behind it.

Stratagy?! Where?! All I've seen is: get attack points. Attack foe. Win/lose. Gain money. Improve attack. Repeat process.

well, i mean the smaller stuff. spying, getting the proper attack/all purpose/defence soldier ratio, finding a good attack/defence ration and sticking to it, finding the right people to attack, using the right number of attack turns for what u wanna do (money or soldiers). u know, that stuff was the slightly more advanced stuff.

Thats not really stratagy at all. Stratagy is like when you plan massive attacks on foes. What you are describing is preparation. :P  

no, only the people who master those things make it too the top. u never see some guy with 100% guys on all purpose attacking people at random make it 2 the top.

But its still not stratagy. :o I remeber when there wasn't even things other than all purpose. People made it into the top ten then. I guess if someone really tried they could do it. Its more like common sense more than anything.

May I remind you that most of the Top 10 are so idle its not even funny?

We're trying to create somehting that people will play, but wont have everybody nder the sun playing it.

KoC's downfall is that it has too many users because its too simple[/i]

When you get a game thats very very easy to play and is based on passing a link to your friends... problems arise, and you get all the wrong kinds of people joining, and trying to exploit the game by cheating.

I agree! Plus, KoC has freakish coding. When they do something 'good' for us its: Oh! Lets start the next age so we can fix all these armies with hundreds more men, then ignore all their opnions and such.

Indeed.

This games key princuples should be
 [li]To create something that is easy enough to play, but not so easy that it attracts riff raff.
 [li]To listen to the players
 [li]To MAKE IT WORK LIKE ITS SUPPOSED TO
 

Oh, well, yeah. That's kinda blatantly obvious, no? :huh:

Well, I was explaining to you because you had lost the power of thought :P

I'm not thinking about creating an easy game.
What I want to do is create a game which allows you to play at any depth, by which I mean you can play it once a week and still survive, or you can spend an hour a day and not get bored.
All games should be easy at the start, so that people can learn the rules and get used to it, but the idea is that as the game progresses it gets harder, just like any other game.

For me, making things work like they should, and listening to your audience are things which are so obvious they shouldn't need stating, and it hurts when I see things that don't do these, like KoC.
It is like catching a train from Hatfield to London, only to find out the train is taking everyone to Bath whetherr they want to go there or not, and even then every half hour the train has to stop while more coal is shovelled into the engine, the toilets are always blocked, half the windows don't open and the worst thing of all is that you cannot even reach the drivers compartment to punch the driver!

I'm a bit dim sometimes, I'm not a /complete/ retard. :P

Hmmm Nice analogy.

Unfortunately, I am going to see tut Matrix for 7, so wont be on IRC much...

Well that's good then, because I was too busy playing Neverwinter, and now I'm going to do some coding, so I wont be on IRC either. :P


To All:
I'm going to go create a forum for discussing this is a moment, so feel free to have ideas, but don't bother posting them till I've setup the forum and created specific threads for each topic, that way things will be more organised and it will be easier to find things.

I have created a passworded section for discussing Fate of Nations development... everyone who wants to help out needs to PM me with what they are able to contribute and I will then send them the password. :)

I will leave this topic open here for people who want to suggest ideas, but are unwilling/unable to help with actual development.

Hey SS... do you actually check your PM inbox? :P

Yes, and as soon as I get round to it, I'll reply to the four people who have PMed me. :P

Well... get round to it...

He has.  :D



Oh, I'm gunna make a list of names and such for it SS, so then you can pick which sounds the best to you, or, if you like several, make a poll and have the crowd deside. I, myself, won't partisipate in the poll (if such happens) because I am biased to my own work... and I'd probably like them all.

ok, one idea that i probably should have checked the previous posts for redundancy, but...
the gold pillaged should have an additional factor of how many men are attacking (doesn't count defenders), and perhaps also factor in beasts of burden (in other words, things and living things that can carry load, i.e. wargs and steeds)

this means that 10 soldiers have less capacity to hold the pillage than 100 soldiers, and 1 soldier controlling 10 steeds would have more capacity than 1 soldier with only knives.
been thinking how stupid it is otherwise... current coding allows for situations where 10 dwarves with battle axes could literally attack and pillage 10million gold if they're lucky... (think about the physical impossibility of lifting 10 million gold pieces by 10 soldiers)

if the above doesn't make sense, or if it only repeated a previous post, just ignore it :P

and concerning coding... what language are you going to be doing it in?
my specialty is in C++ (college level), but with training and experience, should be able to do java/html/etc...

i think that's a good idea, but it might be really hard to code.  i wouldn't know though cuz i'm not that good at programming.  i'm better at website stuff

Gandalf, yes the gold pillaging will definitely be dependant on realistic factors... all the equations will be done properly. It wont be difficult to code, because it isn't difficult to say something like "if Attack=Success then Pillage=Random*Armysize*Carryable" ... except it will be a little more advanced than that, but you get the idea.

As for language, we're using Coldfusion for two reasons:
1) I know it better than I know any other language... including English. :mellow:
2) It is very easy to learn, especially if you already know PHP/ASP/etc.

The site front-end code will hopefully meet XHTML1.1 specifications...

okey

hmm...

PHP... whoops, i never touched on that before (as well as ASP that you've mentioned...)

bleh, i guess i'll just watch and play once the game comes out :D