BPsite Forums
March 28, 2024, 05:03:51 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: BPSITE FOREVER!
 
  Home Help Search Members Login Register  
  Show Posts
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5
1  BPSITE / BPSITE Headquarters / From nothing, nothing comes on: August 24, 2004, 11:53:49 PM
Quote
As for the inevitable yet redundant religious debate: Anyone thinking the statement can prove or disprove the existance of a god is being a fool.
God might or might not exist. The statement being true doesn't prove that either way. If the statement was false, it still wouldn't prove it either way.


Hence, why this isn't a religious discussion and won't be. Wink

Quote
I think that's overly complicated.

Not complicated at all.  It's just like saying "From nothing, nothing comes", but in different words.

Quote
in strict terms, is (to me) so blatantly true that anyone asking for proof of it is just being ridiculous.

Believe it or not a growing number of atheists are actually taking the position that something can begin to exist from absolute nothingness.  A physicist friend of mine actually believes this, but he doesn't use proof to defend his reasoning.  Heck, I can't help, but ask for proof when someone posits such a thing.  


Lanair,

I'm in a few discussions at Planet Wisdom with some rather annoying young earth creationists, so you're going to have to give me some time until I type that PM up.  Sorry.
2  BPSITE / BPSITE Headquarters / From nothing, nothing comes on: August 23, 2004, 08:21:08 PM
I'd have to type a really long and off-subject reply to that question.  I'm wanting it to stay just on the subject of whether or not the principle is true.  

I can send you a reply through PM, though.
3  BPSITE / BPSITE Headquarters / From nothing, nothing comes on: August 22, 2004, 06:46:36 PM
Yeah, I understand, but you'll have to trust me that I'm not going to bring it into any type of religious discussion.  I'm already in too many at other forums, anyway.

I wouldn't bug you guys that bad. Wink
4  BPSITE / BPSITE Headquarters / From nothing, nothing comes on: August 22, 2004, 06:38:50 PM
This has nothing to do with God; hence why I haven't introduced God.  This has to do with an ontological principle that agnostics and even most atheists embrace and defend as I do.
5  BPSITE / BPSITE Headquarters / From nothing, nothing comes on: August 22, 2004, 06:27:37 PM
Quote
How does it prove anything about existence?

The example was supposed to show something coming into existence uncaused, which is in direct violation of an ontological principle me and Blake were discussing.  It was up to me to show the example either flawed or misunderstood.  It proves that there is a cause in the spin-flip transition.
6  BPSITE / BPSITE Headquarters / From nothing, nothing comes on: August 21, 2004, 09:04:53 PM
Me and Blake had a discussion on the ontological principle "whatever begins to exist has a cause for it's existence" which he attempted to give either evidence against or possibilities for the principle to be flawed.

The reason I'm making a separate thread is because this has nothing at all to do with God - in fact, it's a million miles away from the other thread.  This has to do with the principle and nothing else.  I thought this section of the discussion worthy enough to continue.

I typed to Blake, basically that:

"It's impossible for the principle to be flawed.  How can something begin to exist without some sort of productive, sustaining cause?  The only alternative is that it came into existence uncaused from and by pure nothingness, which is absurdity".

Blake gave this as an example from something existing without a cause:

Quote
> "the example that comes to my mind is the hyperfine
> (or spin-flip)
> transition
> that occurs in hydrogen gas in nebulae. The gas is
> thin enough that atoms
> rarely collide, so if an electron gets knocked up to
> a higher energy state,
> it
> will often stay there for millions of years until
> [without a cause], it
> simply
> falls back down. This gives the 21 cm (if I'm
> remembering the number right)
> emission line which we can use to look at the
> interiors of nebulae"

I've talked with several friends about this (in particular, the editor for LeadershipU) and we've come to this conclusion:

The situation you describe concerning the hydrogen spin flip (21-cm) radiation occurs in very cold regions of space. The spin-flip is a very low energy transition which can only occur in the coldest of regions.   Hydrogen, in any of the excited states, can absorb energy from the environment causing the electron to jump to a higher state. While it is true that the nebular regions are very low density of matter, it is not interactions with matter that cause atoms to transition into higher states. An electron in a hydrogen atom must absorb energy in the form of a photon to become excited. The regions of nebulae are intermixed with stars that pump out lots of photons with which hydrogen atoms can absorb.

Once an atom becomes excited, its natural tendency is to be at the lowest level of energy. If an atom absorbs a photon to become excited, if no other energy is available to keep it excited, it will give off energy and fall to a lower energy state (or even to ground state). If it helps, you can think of it as you holding a rubber band in the stretched state. The longer you hold it, the more tired you get. Eventually, you'll let go and the rubber band will return to its unstretched position (its ground state). It will stay there unless more energy is available to excite theatom. The amount of radiation that it gives off is dependent on which excited state it jumps from (each state from ground to first excited to second excited, etc.) is a different amount. In the coldest regions of space, hydrogen can experience the spin-flip transition in which the electron achieves that lowest level of energy in the ground state (yes, quantum mechanics allows for 2 ground states).

So, in short, there actually is a cause. The cause is
the electron achieving the lowest energy level allowed
in the conditions where the electron exists.


Conclusion

I think it's best to stick with the ontological principle.  As C.S. Lewis writes,

"There never was a time when nothing existed; otherwise nothing would exist now."

We should stick with "whatever begins to exist must have a cause for it's existence".


Comments/Criticisms  Tongue
7  The Great Alliance / The Great City / Beta on: August 09, 2004, 07:50:33 AM
I was hoping for an alliance trade feature, but don't see one... that sucks.

Overall, I like it a lot.

How are so many people moving up so quickly in everything?
8  The Great Alliance / The Great City / Beta release date for Dark Throne on: August 05, 2004, 04:04:39 AM
Click here

Bout time... now I can stopped getting massed. Cheesy  
9  The Great Alliance / The Great City / What would you do? on: August 05, 2004, 02:51:23 AM
Will one of you guys send them a message or something... try to scare them away.  It's all I can think of seeing that I can't attack them because of the 0 defense tactic.

The names are:

1.  TheCount
2.  The Countess
3.  Darkside
4.  Gein

The rest of them are either minor players or have defense.  I'd really appreciate it a lot.
10  BPSITE / Temple of Caliginosity / Strange Sex Venues on: August 04, 2004, 05:14:26 AM
It takes a heck of a lot of strength and will to keep it until marriage.  Something I'm terribly lacking.
11  BPSITE / Temple of Caliginosity / Strange Sex Venues on: August 04, 2004, 04:45:31 AM
I believe the Bible teaches against it.  I just happen to ignore the Bible when I've gotten in situations like that... we all have our weaknesses, right?
12  BPSITE / Temple of Caliginosity / Strange Sex Venues on: August 04, 2004, 04:09:07 AM
Well, yes, of course.  I'd be depressed, if I were a 22 year old virgin. Wink  
13  BPSITE / Temple of Caliginosity / Strange Sex Venues on: August 04, 2004, 03:50:07 AM
Has anyone typed a church as one.

.... not that I've ever done that....  :paranoid:  
14  The Great Alliance / The Great City / What would you do? on: August 04, 2004, 03:24:25 AM
Quote
How many of them are there exactly?

Roughly 8 of them.  It's hard to tell with the defense log, though.  I've had 8 players attack me regularly, so I'm guessing they are all from the same alliance.  I've never been attacked like that before.
15  The Great Alliance / The Great City / What would you do? on: August 04, 2004, 02:25:24 AM
Well, that's what is weird about the leaders of Black Mass - TheCount and TheCountess.  I try to attack them back to take their gold, yet their gold never goes up... I've been watching it closely.  The only idea I have is that when they get online to play, they pile up all of their citizens as miners, get a load of money, then when ready to sign off, they simply put them back on offense.

Yes, they are watching me.  They've got about 4 different people obviously keeping me on close watch - once my gold is starting to raise up, they attack in a planned fashion.  One thing I've gotta give the is that they've got their stuff down.  3 or 4 of them get on at the same time and each of them attack me only once or twice a piece, so they can do it pretty much every time they sign on.  

They did have several minor players (more annoyances than threats) attacking me when I had defensive soldiers just to kill a few more of them and I guess to make sure I move up levels as the main attackers do.  Those don't attack anymore, though (seeing that my defensive soldiers have been taken out)... unless they catch me with an inviting amount of gold.  

TheCount has finally moved up a level, so he can't attack me.  Heh... all I have is 100 points to the next level, though.  So, basically, I can't retaliate against the minor players.


I swear... it's like trying to swat a fly. :unsure:
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.16 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!